Crazy that even the people who enjoy M+ are concerned.
Sadly, they will continue to push M+ into esports as hard as they can - look at mythic raids for any indication of their thought process.
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I never said remove m+? Just the keystone mechanic.
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You can de-rank a key by asking an NPC to do it I think thatâs fine.
Because people leave in the middle of a key, I think a de-rank shouldnât happen that way.
There should be some kind of penalty for a person bailing on everyone in the middle of the key without having a key de-rank, because of that one person.
If you fail the key, yes it should be de-ranked and have roll for a different dungeon.
I think de-ranks exists as consequences of failing a key and motivates players to pass it.
âŚ
That does sound silly, just allow de-ranks done by NPCâs.
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People already leave at one messed up pull in keys that are easily timeable. There is really data to suggest this would increase but maybe? And even if they did leave early after a bad pull. Who cares? Run it back.
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I mean to be fair, how hard it is to reach the top 0.1% title isnât a concern that nearly anyone reading this will ever have. Yeah it sucks for players like Ellipsis. But it seems like a big overreaction to what very easily may have been an unintended consequence of what Blizzard felt was better for everyone else to act like this outcome is proof of Blizzard trying to push M+ even closer toward an eSport.
To be clear itâs not âI canât get title that would be badâ, itâs more indicating a shift that seems less healthy for the game as a whole due to some, as youâve said, unintended consequences.
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I didnât know how to âreplyâ to a forum thing here so it looked messed up. I did rework it just after.
No, they plague the group finder until they find a carry. That would be miserable for everyone else.
If that person canât be responsible to deplete their own key voluntarily then thatâs on them. Theyâll keep failing at the key.
You can tell when youâre not doing enough, people will always let you know.
On top of that if youâre PUGing a group and you for sure arenât doing enough, people will just leave. If youâre in a pre-made group your friends may try to help you time it, but theyâll definitely be honest about you not being able to do it and having to practice.
Regardless youâre going to wake up and understand. On top of that, you act as if youâre gifted a difficult key at the get go. Thatâs not how it works. You start off at a +2 if you didnât join someone elseâs.
Even if you did do a +6 with a group that totally carried you, thatâs on them for not leaving or removing you and finding someone else. They SHOULD be able to replace you, thatâs how progress works, itâs hard to hear but itâs the truth.
You should take it upon yourself to do lower keys and understand the dungeon, or run the same key at the same level and do better each time until you get it right. - again that shouldnât happen because you arenât just handed high keys.
As for what the PUG experience is: Everyone who runs keys +6 or above runs with Raider IO, and if not everyone a good majority of people. The experience RIGHT NOW is people join a group, scroll over the players and see what their current history is with keys and the dungeon they signed up for. There are no surprises, they all check and make sure. As it happens RIGHT NOW people who make the groups use Raider IO to check peopleâs scores and how they performed on the current dungeon. Thatâs just how it is.
Youâre pretending thereâs some scenario where no one does this. If you donât, Iâm sorry to break it to you but this is the reality.
If youâre asking me how you are going to currently make a group and gauge whether the key will be successful or not you need to look at the other playerâs history on said key for said group. WoW has it in-game but you can install the Raider IO addon and itâll solve it for you. Should you rely on an addon? no, but thatâs what we have. I donât see you bashing on that, but I do clearly see you pretending it doesnât exist.
You arenât being an elitist gatekeeper, you just sound like you donât know enough on the subject and youâre bringing in your world view from a purely one-sided perspective without enough exposure as to how groups are actually made for higher keys.
Also youâre talking as if the whole group is experiencing this, but mentioning it as the Leader of a PUG. That makes no sense, there is no shared punishment. It only affects they Key Holder. The group doesnât suffer you suffer.
As it stands now, people feel bad leaving groups and donât always leave right away. This is because they know YOU will be punished.
However, at the time an inconvenience comes up they will just drop and you get punished anyway.
If there were no mandatory depletion people would just leave without the guilt.
Thatâs it, plain and simple.
They already leave NOW, but if you remove the depletion theyâll leave and youâll have to start the key from scratch without holding anyone socially hostage.
The points you make may have been positive, but they truly arenât.
Step outside of where youâre coming from for just a little but and kind of think on the information.
Iâm not here arguing about why there should be no depletion.
Iâm here to say there should be no auto-depletion.
And youâve already given a huge argument against no depletion.
Tons of failed groups because people can get carried if they try enough.
Not if you expect it of me. Iâm petty.
Was resurrecting an old thread on the topic not satisfactory enough?
No you donât, because people wouldnât be socially obligated to stay since they know your key wouldnât deplete. Theyâd just leave, and almost always players say something.
I think youâre forgetting people who run +6 or higher keys use RaiderIO. They already vet people and gauge how itâll go based on teh information they get from your character. You make it sound like people take a 50/50 chance as to whether their time will be wasted or not.
They either vet the group ahead of time, leave before the key actually starts or leave at the first wipe.
Again, people will just leave since they wonât feel socially obligated to finish the key. Most people currently just trek through until they canât stand it anymore. If they do however carry you instead of leave thatâs on them. Good job, but eventually youâll have to realize that people will just leave. Keep posting the same key though, Iâm sure itâll work out, but until it does itâs just back to square 1. As much as you like to push this agenda, I know no one wants to keep doing it until it works.
RaiderIO also has a sort of blacklist system, where you can report players for things in their own platfrom and if enough are true you just wonât get people queueing up to your keys.
Exactly, people ALREADY leave. This changes nothing, other than they will leave guilt free since theyâre no socially obligated to stay. NO ONE wants their time wasted. You SHOULDNâT be advocating to waste otherâs time as well.
Itâs not a perfect fix, but itâs better than what we have now.
Iâd like to inform you of something though, since you havenât experienced this yet.
If youâre removed, or DC after a key has started and the group somehow manages to finish it you still get credit for your Vault, and you still get IO Score.
So being able to be deplete free and having someone kick you half way through wouldnât affect you at all. If the group finishes the key without starting from scratch (leaving the dungeon and resetting for a new player) you still get credit.
Thatâs how it works NOW and thatâs how it SHOULD keep working.
Again, weâre only talking about Key Depletion, not things that ALREADY happen with keys.
I donât think I understand these short topics, as Iâve already explained above how this would work. Also, every point you made Iâve proven ALREADY happens.
At this point youâre attempting to pick apart my statements but without any real counters.
None of what youâve stated or mentioned is a positive for keeping Key Depletion.
People already arenât obligated to stay, thatâs why you get so many m+ leaver threads lol.
Thatâs their right, but every time they try and make a group for a key +6 or above, theyâll have to deal with people who generally use RaiderIO.
Which means that theyâll be able to see failed keys or non-timed keys at least.
This is also assuming that someone was magically gifted a key above their level.
Remember, if depletion was left up to the player this problem would solve itself.
No one would join you. Anyone who did would scroll over you and see your history/score. Theyâd leave before the key even begins (which already happens NOW)
If they decided they were going to give it a shot and found the group wanting, they would leave. (This also happens now anyway, the only difference is people feel socially obligated to trek through until something big happens, most of the time.)
Regardless, these are things that happen already.
Youâre going back on your previous statement.
Yes they already leave NOW.
They would in fact leave more often AFTER auto-key depletion was removed.
Iâm Forsaken⌠nothing is beneath me, not even resurrection.
To be fair I wanted to make my own post but it was suggested I just post on an open thread.
Here we are! 
/hug
It should not be because it makes it a horrible experience for everyone else involved. Depletion keeps this in check, and thereâs no shortage of keys where loot still matters.
Which means that theyâll be able to see failed keys or non-timed keys at least.
You donât use that website lolâŚ
you canât see failed keys.
(because they arenât completed at all.)
Still no because we all know that the keyholder looking to exploit this was carried through a key they had no business in, and will continue to list this key they have no business being in, ruining enough peopleâs runs until they finally find 4 people who carried them again.
Itâs degenerate behaviour that wastes the time of good players and encourages the toxic casual target demographic ego.
So blizz will probably give in.
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Iâm sorry but youâre wrong.
This ALREADY happens. I keep mentioning this because itâs important.
People who run +6 keys and above generally use RaiderIO. They can ALREADY see the progress of your current character and your main character.
They can ALREADY choose just to leave before the key starts, or theyâll give you an opportunity, but at the beginning of something bad happening theyâll just drop.
Thatâs how it is ALREADY, RIGHT NOW.
Youâre not providing any positive light to keeping automatic key depletion with this statement.
Youâre right, I apologize for the misinformation.
You use the addon and it shows you the info for failed keys that have been completed.
However the absence of key information is just as good as you failing it or never having done it.
It would mean that either:
- You havenât got any experiencing running it.
- Youâve never had a group stick around to at least finishing it.
Regardless, these are things that happen NOW and removing auto-key depletion wonât affect them, or at least not in the numbers that youâre thinking.