I absolutely agree with you, but a lot of people around here will disagree. Downgrading a key is meaningless, given that any “benefit” to downgrading can already be achieved by voluntarily downgrading. Forced downgrades are bad.
1 Like
But people not having the ability to run a key after failing is a benefit to the ecosystem at large.
And it’s not possible to recreate that without forced downgrading.
This already exists. Meta classes simply can get title because quantity over quality.
I disagree. My goal is to play the game. I cannot play the game because I wont be invited cause im not VDH or a mage/aug/spriest. If keystone hoarding was less of an issue, I could just continuously play the game running my own key instead of having to save it because of scarcity. I also wouldnt have to do as many homework keys because I play non-meta.
I don’t believe that would change, in fact it would get worse because the difficulty of keys required to get title in an absolute sense would only increase and you would only be less equipped to handle them. The only thing that can fix that is better balance between specs.
I’m sure some people might. However, a lot of folks I play with (non-meta) classes will not swap. They just quit the game or step away for the season because they are effectively capped outside friend keys. I stopped playing in season 2 and 3 cause finding a group takes too long.
And if there was no penalty people would be able to try out more pulls. It is no secret that tourney realms provide immense practice for top teams. Everyone copies the same routes because they cannot afford to screw up testing stuff out.
I was in a queue for my friend of a friend’s 17 azure vault today. We ended up not running it cause a VDH wouldn’t join. I wasn’t allowed to tank cause I’m a warrior. We just disbanded instead of running it.
Yes it does.
Conclusion is that everything you said contradicts my experience in keys so /shrug. Take care.
Some might, but you are also talking about the top end that are within .1-1%.
I’m not saying it would be void of benefits. It would enable more practice runs for bleeding edge players, but the benefits would be severely outweighed by the additional exploits and consequences of people failing upwards moreso than now.
Key depletion does not “reduce accessibility”.
Conclusion is that you can’t think critically beyond how things affect you and those within the .1-1%. Good talk. Removing key depletion would cause more damage to the pug community on the macro level.
1 Like
I don’t disagree that it would increase the level of top keys by about 1. But at that point I can still try to play and run my own key. Right now I’m forced to save keys cause they are too valuable for me and my monk friend. I effectively cannot play the game until tomorrow night. This is the 3rd season in a row where I can either reroll another tank class or just stop playing the game.
If you’re willing to do homework keys, you can play forever.
Like surely, there’s a level in which you will not fall below.
And that is unfortunate, and I sympathise and will always campaign for better spec balance in m+ (DF S1 is some of the most fun I’ve ever had in keys and I played with every single class well above title).
However as someone playing a meta class pugging title range keys right now, the pug scene cannot handle 1-2 more levels of difficulty, no matter how many attempts you give them, let alone with non meta specs.
2 Likes
TLDR: I don’t like challenging content
I dont know the stats on it, neither do you, but I’d agree its more prevalent at the top. People will still swap to meta, some don’t some just quit the game. Thats sad.
We don’t really know the consequences, it could be very fun to see the gameplay that emerges when you give the community full access. I know everyone was in awe of the echo strat on murozonds rise.
When people can’t find groups because people don’t want to chance their key on someone because of depletion, that’s an accessibility issue. When I don’t want to bring a less experienced friend to a high key because of depletion, that’s an accessibility issue.
Oh yes, I can’t think critically. What a nice discussion we’re having. Maybe someday I can be like you where I insult people on the internet to feel better about myself.
Wish granted.
90% of your time thus far has been insisting no one will understand your extremely simple and banal topic.
etc. etc. it’s genuinely ridiculous.
1 Like
Again, you are talking about the .1-1% of the playerbase. Those players will always lean towards swapping meta, but key depletion isn’t the reason for it.
We do know what would happen. It’s very easy to see how it would negatively impact the pug community more than it would help. We already have score inflation from people being carried through vault and crest runs. Keys never depleting would add to that 10 fold. Now a player can get carried once in a +10 and now they can spam it for the rest of the season even if they are no where near ready for it skill wise. This will lead to a plummet in successful runs and more toxicity. It will also enable groups to kick people out for the first time in M+. Not only will we have people coming here complaining about people leaving keys, we will now have people complaining about being kicked after dying in the first pull.
People who are off-meta will continue to be invited less regardless of key depletion. Meta classes will continue to be taken because it still provides the key holder with a feeling of increased odds of success. Period.
You get what you give.
The most obvious case against not deranking keys.
This isn’t really a practical solution though I appreciate the sympathies. Blizzard have proven their in ability to address tuning issues for three seasons in a row now. The last two seasons of Shadowlands as well. I dont think its fair that 5-7 specs get to play the game and the rest of the specs are doomed to homework keys.
I dont see how this would really affect this level of keys to be honest. Everything is percentile based. I would assume this change would have little affect to title cutoff. Maybe a key level which at that point. I would assume the entire player base would just increase in IO relative to one another, but you could still just run your key.
Oh yeah, where was I disrespectful to you?
In this season, it would push the bottleneck for title from 19s to 20s. 18s are currently puggable, 19s are very hard but puggable, and would get done given enough time in a depleteless system. 20s would be the domain of coordinated groups only, as they currently already are.
There is a point at which the combination of technical expertise, coordination, pressure on key players (HPS Checks), and burden of knowledge exceeeds what pugs are capable of.
If title range ever exceeds that limit that is the worst case scenario, and it is right on the edge already.
You initiate conversation with me and make everything based on personal anecdote from top to bottom then end with /shrug take care. I called you out on how you are attributing meta swapping to key depletions when that isn’t the reason why people swap to meta classes. Even Hpellipsis is saying that.
In terms of you getting what you give, snowpine quoted some good ones.
I mean a few 19 to 18s is title currently. Which is puggable. On the same coin, I don’t think its really fair that some classes just get to pug to title while others are forced to form teams from +16 on. Right now it is worst case scenario for every non-meta class.
I do think that while it might force more players to form teams for the last key push, I dont think sacrificing all non-meta classes in the 16-18 range is really healthy for the game just so the few meta classes can no voice pug title.
Either way point taken.
I didn’t initiate a conversation with you. You quoted me first and hit me with a nasty end line of how my ideas are bad and circular logic. /shrugging is about the most polite way to respond.
People do swap to meta because of key depletions and getting invite to keys. You can ask him why people swap to meta and he will tell you they swap for invites because people don’t risk depleting keys on non-meta classes.
I muted that guy cause he was being toxic. I have in no way insulted anyone without them throwing stone first. Have a good night.
EU title is 3648 right now, NA is 3622, with 3 and a half weeks to go (Though next week is basically dead). For EU at least, 367X seems a reasonable guess for final cut. That’s every key on 19 on fort or tyra except uldaman and depending on your timers maybe 1 more, and 18 uldaman is already a pretty herculean task in a pug.
People swap metas because of scaling and class balancing. Not because keys deplete.
And if they removed depletions, their reasons would change to not wanting to risk wasting time with non-meta classes that are weaker. Regardless, we are back to talking about the .1%. There are 99.9% of the other playerbase.
Ur right about that, I’ll take ownership of this. I didn’t realize you were the OP that I addressed earlier tonight.