I’m nowhere near that lol. I’m 18 points from ksh and I just have 1 timed +10.
I really don’t see how.
If your trying to push a key for the first time lets say it takes X number of attempts. And for every attempt that fails you need to waste time running a lower key.
If X is the same for both organized groups and puggers, then it’s just a matter of who plays more. They both spend half their time re ranking up keys for another attempt.
If X isn’t the same, say the organized group can rank up in less attempts than a pug group, then it benefits the pug group more because they need more attempts.
For example, organized group needs 10 attempts. So 20 runs to get the 10 attempts. This change would save them 10 runs worth of time.
If the pug group needs 30 attempts, then 60 runs. This change would save them 30 runs worth of time.
The time cost for failure is not the same.
The current system penalizes failure way more.
What if X is lower for pugs, and higher for organized groups?
The things people engrossed in existing M+ culture care about really demonstrate why it needs to be changed.
Very few people care about the nonsense most of you are talking about.
Changing the system is about respecting player time and trying to increase participation in World of Warcraft end-game content, not about appeasing the 1% of you who actually continue playing M+ already through the entire expansion and like the status quo.
Making keys not derank would make it worse for the most people.
you should be punished for a ragequit.
I prefer the beta suggestion of using something similar to the Delve UI to let people select whatever level they want to do when they start the dungeon more than not deranking.
I just want people to be able to play when they want to play and don’t see any value whatsoever in gatekeeping what level they can attempt or how many attempts they can do.
Not really. I fully understand how you reach that conclusion but it’s missing a few caveats that change things a bit.
The only tangible reward for key pushing, the M+ title, is a % based reward. That means the more doable high keys are (Through having more chances to run them or them just being easier) the harder the keys you need to do to reach title will be.
The way the ecosystem works around title is one of bottlenecks. Currently that’s around +19, 18s are comfortably puggable, and 19s are extremely hard in pugs.
All 18s are currently not enough for title, so you have to really cut your teeth and play extremely way in lieu of an organised group.
Were it possible to brute force / trial and error 19s due to the removal of depletion, that doesn’t mean you get title, it means you need to do 20 because the bottleneck moved up.
And 20s right now are completely out of the range of pugs, regardless of how many times you get to try.
1 Like
It would make it worse for people.
I just want people to be able to play when they want to play and don’t see any value whatsoever in gatekeeping what level they can attempt or how many attempts they can do.
So people that allegedly belong only have the key.
Why do these posts so frequently feature a ridiculous binary situation like you do here? Saying there are players who would list their 8 despite being unqualified for that level does not mean that’s the only use case. But every group that does meet that criteria creates noise for finding actual groups capable for a +8 and wastes quite a bit of time for those who join those groups. Again, that doesn’t mean every 8 will be that way, but far more will if keys don’t derank than when depletion drops keys by 1 each time.
So out of curiosity, did you actually bother reading that tweet before you posted it? You claim JB has vocal takes against key depletion, yet the one you elected to post is one where all he does is compare key depletion to mythic raid, without any commentary on whether that was good, bad, or indifferent. Outside of something that directly contradicts your position, I’m not sure if you could have chosen a worse tweet that even remotely covers the topic if you tried…
Most seasons where I’ve tried to push with PUGs just in the neighborhood of 3K I’ve had to switch from feral to resto because of not being able to get invites. That’s anecdotal, sure, but it seems quite optimistic to suggest that PUGs in even higher keys would somehow be less selective than this.
No, it would make it a lot better for a lot of people. The key system discourages a lot of people from playing at all.
If I could just go into a dungeon and pick the level I want to do, I’d be far more likely to participate compared to when me and a couple friends get crap keys for the week and either have to find a random pug with a key we want to do or just not do much that week.
The beta thread making the suggestion still had random dungeon keys but lets you pick whatever level you want up to what you’ve unlocked. I personally would just let people do any of them at any time.
It kinda depends on what I’ll call celebrity status.
I will not invite a warrior, but there are warriors I will invite because across multiple seasons they have proven themselves capable. The higher you go the smaller the player pool, and the more you recognise people from one season to the next.
I understand. But it still seems it like the change would apply itself to everyone equally.
And it sounds like by they way you’re framing it, it’s more a choice of running 1000 keys to time all 20’s, 500 of which are re ranking, or running 1000 keys to time all 21’s. All of which are attempts.
I don’t play this way so I don’t know. But if I did I’d rather play with the latter rule set.
The key system discourages a lot of people from playing at all.
Citation needed.
The group finder being infested with unqualified people would be far worse.
The problem is there is a limit to what a group formed in LFG can succeed at, no matter how many attempts they are given, and if that limit happens before title cutoff, then the Pug community’s aspirations stop dead.
We’re almost at that limit this season. Any harder and title becomes premades only.
The personal experience of a lot of players and the fact that M+ participation declines substantially past a single season because not many people want to deal with it.
You defeated your first comment with this comment since you’re essentially admitting fewer people try to participate with the system as it is, lol.
Set better restrictions and be super anal-retentive about who you invite if you want to.
I don’t care how you play or what you want to do in your groups but the system shouldn’t be designed to discourage people from playing the game.
He’s not though, they’ll just participate once at +8, fail, then do a +7, maybe fail, etc etc. If there’s no deranking, it’s just all +8 even though they obviously don’t belong. There’s no fewer players participating, just less that don’t belong.
I’d phrase it a bit differently.
Valuing average completion rate of keys over total number of keys attempted.
I strongly suspect that at this level it’s entirely a matter of other factors. Got to play META group comp, got to practice, got to have every little task assigned, and every little task needs to executed perfectly. Entirely not a pug or casual thing.
And all of those things have nothing to do with spending half your time running keys you need nothing from.
I’ll bow out now. Was just surprised to see this topic come from someone running +16’s and not someone that’s never timed a +3 that wants to miss on 8’s all week for gear and have no consequences. And from the perspective of someone running for IO it does seem overly burdensome.
To be clear I am playing at this level. I’m about 3700 right now pugging and I’ve pugged the whole of dragonflight. I can see all of this happening in real time.