A proposal for Warsong Gulch

So, I’ve talked a bit about PVP storytelling, and I’d like to keep doing that during my time here. I’ve tiptoed around proposals here and there - now I’d like to take a crack at fleshing one out.

Overall Ground Rules

According to Christina Norman’s 2014 GDC talk: “Storytelling in Multiplayer Competitive Games”, there are four ground rules to keep in mind.

  1. Never Irritating - and this means that story needs to be opt-in, and that it needs to remember why the players are there (to have fun playing the game).
  2. No pausing or delays. (Or pressing to skip) Interrupting the flow of gameplay or putting a cinematic at the end of the experience isn’t an option, the story needs to be delivered while play is going on.
  3. No distractions - because distractions get you killed.
  4. No conflicting goals. That is, if someone is pursuing a story objective, that can’t effectively mean that the team is down a player, the story needs to support the mechanical objectives.

There are a bevy of so-called “cursed problems” inherent to the application of these rules to a game that also wants to have a narrative. I’d argue that #1 is hitting the game on a franchise-wide level, but to stay focused, these are the elements we will have to keep in mind.

I want to also keep another element in mind: counterplay. One of Norman’s examples in that talk is the “The Hunt is On” example from League of Legends - which I take slight issue with because one of the teams could end up with an overpowered player if they finish their story event. I want to react to that by saying that if one team gets something from a story event, then so does the other. I’ll get into how with later quest discussions.

Background Lore

Edit: Adding this post for further context - a BG revamp of this sort would fit within the larger context and contours of this proposal (with some details changed from the Orc and Night Elf sections): https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/writing-a-pvp-narrative-post-shadowlands/801368

After Battle for Azeroth and during Shadowlands, negotiations between the Alliance and the Horde broke down. Because Tyrande never signed the peace treaty, the fighting, while subjected to lulls now and then to allow for some fits of failed negotiation, never stopped, and a revamped Alliance questing experience in Ashenvale would show how the Night Elves pushed the Horde out of the region for good (they do this at the expense of losing Stonetalon - which is another conversation).

During that questing, we encounter a Silverwing commander who is out for revenge. She drops hints during the questing, like “that was for so and so” at times - and she and the player participate in some of the major offensives. One of the things I want with this character is for her to cut a darker tone than a typical Alliance heroes. She doesn’t take prisoners, for example, and considers attacks not always in terms of what’s strategically the best idea - but what will result in as many dead Orcs as possible.

For the Horde side, I incorporate this story by reference - the silver sentinel in it will be the character described above, with these actions taking place after the Alliance questing:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/wanting-to-be-hated/838095/716

Both sets of questing will eventually lead you to the quests that we discuss today.

Hybrid Approach: Optional, reputation based questline with repeatable battleground components intended to introduce mayhem to random BGs.

I am going to concede that we can’t do ALL of this directly in the BG. The need for a kind of personal narrative to follow these two commanders conflicts directly with the method of gameplay. So there would be an optional tie-in questline for each of the commanders that unlocks itself as you gain more reputation with the Silverwing Avengers and the Warsong Militia.

Additionally, for each change in reputation (you start at friendly), you gain access to a quest that changes the battle somewhat, by for instance, introducing the ability to use glaive throwers on the map to destroy the enemy’s available “buff huts” - however, if you have this quest, the Horde would also gain access to demolishers to do the same to you to ensure that this quest is something that the other side can derive counterplay from.

This also means that every time someone is doing this quest, or the weekly repeatable version of it, the battleground’s rules have been slightly altered for both teams. (Obviously, this would not apply to rated play) If more than one person has the quest on one side, while both players would get any voice over content or “invisible content” (stuff that only the player with the quest can see - added for flavor, not for mechanics), the mechanics would appear once. If multiple players with multiple quests are in the same battleground, then the different mechanics stack, leading to additional variability in the battleground that provides new kinds of play for each team.

The quests.

(A) (PVE) Full Moon is Rising
(H) (PVP) The Sky is Black

This was mentioned in the linked content - but from the Orcish perspective. The Alliance perspective is going to be that act of being intercepted, where the Orcish commander is presented as your antagonist, with the Horde content doing so vice versa. This quest has similar mechanics on both sides - and serves to give you more content with your commander, but crucially, to present the enemy commander as well. Each respective side comes back intrigued and angered by their counterpart. This acts as the breadcrumb from the questing content to the Gulch’s questline.

(A) (Optional) (Friendly) (PVE) Silverwing Gulch
(A) (Optional) (Friendly) (PVP) Breaking in your glaive
(H) (Optional) (Friendly) (PVE) Warsong Valley
(H) (Optional) (Friendly) (PVP) Cutting your Teeth

You pick this quest up in Silverwing Grove or the Mor’shan Base Camp - which appear to each have been destroyed. The Sentinel Commander explains that Silverwing Grove was raided by the Horde’s rogues in the opening acts of the Third War - commenting bitterly that they didn’t kill her. The Orcish commander notes that the Night Elves ransacked the Mor’shan Ramparts and the Base Camp just days ago - and that the Warsong only recently took the area back.

For the PVE quest - you are introduced to a subcommander who complains that in battles of Warsong Gulch’s past, many new grunts/sentinels would get themselves killed by fighting in the middle, getting distracted, or not knowing what to do. To deal with that, they’ve set up a mock version of the gulch, and they’re going to have you participate in a mock ‘battle’ to learn the ropes of the battleground itself. (This quest can be repeated)

The PVP quest gives you a sentinel or grunt companion, who fights with you - although in reality they do no damage and can only be seen by you. This NPC will give voice-over lines that will encourage you to participate well in the battleground. Things like “the battle is over there!” if you stray too far away from the action. “Our banner is undefended!” If no one is watching the flag room. Or “they’re getting away with our banner!” If you’re fighting in the middle and the flag carrier is nearby. (this quest is also repeatable)

These quests are essentially tutorials - and they can be repeated until you reach honored.

(H) (Honored) (PVE): In the Dead of Night
(A) (Honored) (PVE): Glide the Mist

The Horde quest, available immediately after you arrive at the Mor’shan Base Camp - asks you to visit the Warsong Militia quartermaster, and then to return to the commander’s tent. There, you find a Night Elf spy - who is quickly cornered and surrenders. The Warsong commander asks her directly about who sent her, offering fair treatment in exchange for the information - which she gives - thus informing the Horde player of the Silverwing commander, and providing some context about her. The Warsong commander leaves the spy under guard.

The Alliance content picks up here. The Silverwing Commander expresses concern that the spy that she sent should have been back by now, and sends the player on a mission to retrieve her. The Alliance player witnesses this exchange, and after the warsong commander leaves, is given the option to distract the guard (or try to kill - but that runs the risk of bringing the whole garrison down on them) and rescue the spy. She reveals what she found out about the Warsong commander - including his history.

The spy also reveals in both instances that each respective commander is planning on bringing in some artillery support.

(H) (Honored) (PVP) Heavy Duty
(A) (Honored) (PVP) The Rippers

These quests introduce siege weapons that can attack other players, but are most useful for eliminating “buff huts”. Each team gets two of them if this quest is activated, although if they are destroyed, they do not regenerate. You complete the quest by successfully destroying one buff hut, at which time an NPC congratulates you over voice over that you have deprived a vital resource from the enemy.

(H) (Revered) (PVE) You won’t break me
(A) (Revered) (PVE) You won’t take me

The Warsong have secured help from the Bilgewater Cartel and seek to mine the approaches from the Mor’shan Rampart. Unfortunately, the Silverwing have attracted help from their gnomish Allies, who have provided them with a device that has irradiated the Mor’shan Rampart. The gulch is now the only way to get from the barrens to Ashenvale, and vice versa. Various skirmishes erupt of course with the other side for each of these quests - commanded by the opposing commander, who achieves their goal of either mining the pass or irradiating the rampart.

(H) (Revered) (PVP) Ram it Down
(A) (Revered) (PVP) Under Blood Red Skies

These quests both involve a “flight master” - nestled deep within the respective bases. The player with the quest gets an NPC companion who provides VO encouragement, but anyone can talk to the flight master - and end up on either a hippogryph or a wyvern, from whom the player may throw explosive devices on the other combatants - as they complete an on-rails loop similar to the repeatable quest at Quel’Danas. Only one player may be in the air at once, they may not make that trip twice, and if the opposing faction kills the flight master, this option is no longer available.

(H) (Exalted) (PVE) Sworn to Avenge
(A) (Exalted) (PVE) Condemn to Hell

These quests involve each of the commanders seeking out the other in a PVE version of Warsong Gulch, complete with clashing forces on either side. The player’s objective is to protect their commander from waves of enemies, but the commanders end up fighting each other directly on this battlefield at several points. We learn by this point that outrage, in both instances, has turned into grudging respect. The sentinel respects that the Orc had been motivated to defend his people because of what happened to his family. The Orc sees his own pain in the sentinel - and a vision of the person he could become if he allows himself to be consumed by his pain. Both of them fail to kill the other, but each vow that they will someday.

(H) (Exalted) (PVP) Tempt not the Blade
(A) (Exalted) (PVP) All fear the Sentinel

The conflict from the PVE quests described previously continue in this quest. The Silverwing Commander enters the battlefield personally, capable of using a version of the starfall spell. She is counteracted by the Warsong commander - who has a wide-ranging bladestorm spell. These two will not immediately rush to the center of the map to fight each other, but will prefer defending the flags - including chasing the flag bearers, which may occasionally put them into conflict - during which moments we’ll get some voice-over content calling back to their status as each others’ nemesis.

Conclusion.

The overall point to this is to take the emotions around this battlefront, and put them in a competitive environment, where they belong. I did, however, focus a part of the conflict around two generic characters - who I nevertheless think should be the recipients of media and more attention than I can devote in the space of a post like this. It is my hope that this results in a balanced presentation of the conflict, although, I would appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this proposal.

Edit: Changed Steamwheedle to Bilgewater per feedback from another thread.

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As much as I like Warsong-Gulch as a BG, I think it would be best not to explain it further Lorewise.

I mean…it would be “The horde is AGAIN” in Ashenvale, this peace Treaty is worth nothing"

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Explain why.

Edit: In a matter that the scenario did not already consider.

Because it would again be an aggressive advance of the Horde - which has no military anymore - into Alliance territories, whereas the Black Moon Army had hardly any casualties and is the only big intact Alliance army today, on top of that Malfurion will surely not twiddle his thumbs when he hears that the Horde is already back, but will quickly sort it out himself and if necessary bury them all alive.

I mean, what do you think, do you think the night elves would really passively watch a border conflict develop again?

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Please see the background lore section once again. Your concerns were answered there.

not really, it would not change a single - again - a single problem of this "Lore.

The Horde would be there - again - and it would be a fight in ashenvale - again.

Na, thank you.

Zahir, you’re better than this. The background lore in no way supports the concerns you’re raising. If you’re going to object to a proposal, you should understand its key points. It appears that you do not.

It’s nice that she wants revenge, but it doesn’t change the fact that they are still IN Ashenvale. WARSONG-Gulch IS IN Ashenvale, you know!

I see a few flaws with this.

  • The Horde doesn’t occupy Ashenvale.

The whole point of Warsong Gulch was a logging operation under attack by the Silverwing Sentinels, which has no reason to be there now that Azshara was given in exchange for leaving and not resuming operations. Like our last conversation about this, BGs are disconnected from story.


  • This flirts with just resuming the war.

It’s not some low temperature skirmish at the edges of borders, where it’s strategically not a very important battle to keep investing soldiers in to maintain operations, so fighting stays sparse. Taking out (or attempting to take out) a High Warlord like Gargok (which I assume is a High Warlord only by his uniform) is a serious thing and would demand a high profile response, which in turn would escalate the conflict.


  • On the back of my last point, it further drives a wedge between the Night Elves and the Alliance story.

Just as the Night Elves represent the Alliance for as long as they’re willing to side with them, the members of the Alliance have the same burden of responsibility to side with the Night Elves in the event of trouble. That Tyrande wasn’t willing to wait and wanted an immediate answer (and by extension taking on the Night Warrior blessing as a plot point) certainly throws a wrench in that when the Alliance couldn’t pony up people to reinforce Darkshore, but, you can see what sort of situation that would create in the story - that being, either they take the side of the Night Elves and just resume the war, the armistice ultimately came to nothing, or sever ties with the Night Elves and let them and (presumably) the Gilneans to fight on their own.

They’re not about to create a third faction. It’d create a sort of strife that, if not answered with departure, would be answered with some finger waggling.

I don’t know about you, but I hated A Little Patience something fierce and I’m not looking for a repeat.


  • Much like the Testing Grounds, it tries to teach players habits to carry with them, but, not all them applicable to the game itself. The part of:

can send mixed messages. While in normal battlegrounds where no coordination is present, that might be ideal, in rated content where your team is in communication, it is far more common to actually team fight in mid.


I’d sooner see this as a “during the 4th war…” narrative than something that infects the current story.

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yeaah, i hated it too.

you can be vengefull and a cold tactician, like alleria were after the second war. It was so bad that even her own soldiers began to demoralize because she made the orcs suffer so much. But her strategies were cold-blooded and very efficient.

A competent and vengefull comander are not mutually exclusive. Anger and rage also show up in many different ways, Cold Heartless Anger being one of the worst because it is exceedingly efficient.

To reply to a few points (these are not direct quotes)…

The Horde doesn’t occupy Ashenvale (The whole point was that it was a logging operation)

The reasons for Warsong Gulch continuing to be a battleground are explained in the background lore. Suffice to say, logging is not its reason for existing this time around.

Testing Grounds (RE: The middle)

I’m aware that “don’t fight in the mid” is not an axiomatic “good” - but I nevertheless think that a context-driven voice over line indicating when the flag is going by is a good indication for the player in the tutorial to consider doing some blocking and tackling. That’s why you try to hold mid in the first place: to block flag routes.

It further drives a wedge between the Night Elves and the Alliance story

I see no issue with this. One of the big things that Night Elf players have consistently asked for is a sense of independence from the Stormwind-dominated nature of the Alliance. BFA has already led us into this direction, and this is a good item to take from that. That said, Warsong Gulch as a battleground brings in universal participation, and the prior quest content is something where some linkages can be put in.

It flirts with resuming the war

I also see no issue with this. A state of background conflict is one that I think World of Warcraft should pursue. This is one of the theaters of said conflict.

BGs are disconnected from story

Is/ought fallacy. I don’t believe they should be.

@ Zahir

Warsong Gulch is in Ashenvale

Which is among the most surface-level readings of the scenario that I can envision. It’s on the border, representing the potential for the conflict to spill the other way, and turning the Warsong into a defensive entity - again, this is explained in the background lore.

I hated A Little Patience

You and Gladwell both made this point, and it confuses me here. What elements of comparison are you drawing? Is this about the offhanded comment about the Sentinel at times preferring to kill orcs rather than pursuing the strategically optimal choice from the 30,000 foot discussion of the prior PVE questing that we haven’t even had the chance to flesh out yet?

Seems like a whole lot of extra work on the pet of the devs for not much in the way of reward. I can get why a Might Elf fan might want a more immersive Warsong Gultch experience where they get to really take it to the Horde wand punish them for being in Ashenvale, but I see no reason for the Horde to be there aside from capturing a flag.

There just isn’t the same amount of passion on both sides of the conflict and I kind of think that might end up being reflected in the player base. If the BG were to suddenly have a bunch of extra story based mechanics I could see them either being ignored by purists, or actively avoided - leading to a mass exodus on one side or the other and the canceling of the match. (Good luck turning in that quest once, let alone weekly.)

Besides, Warsong Gultch is pretty much a straight forward product of its time. I can think of a few other BG’s that could stand to have some sort of plot explanation and their mechanics tweaked.

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I’m going to address your last point first - because the proposal is not to work on this in a vacuum. Other battlegrounds would get similar tie-in content. This post explores the project of doing that for one battleground that will continue to exist whether we do this or not.

As for the Horde’s reasons for participating, again, such was explained in the background lore.

Finally - regarding those mechanics, I have to ask for more elaboration on why these mechanics wouldn’t work. I feel that I’ve adequately explained how each of them works from a counterplay point of view, and that these wouldn’t impact rated play. I have to ask for a better reply than “I don’t think purists would like it”.

I do think Franken’s point on passion does warrant some further discussion here. Motivation is a major factor, but when we tie the BG directly to story we run into a big issue with the Horde-side. The Alliance and Night Elves are SUPER motivated, they want to take it to the Horde, get payback, rah rah vengeance for Teldrassil/Theramore. It resonates with the current mindset of the Playerbase.

The Horde? Same thing, but in a negative way. We didn’t ask for this, just like the farmer but we’re suffering consequences all the same. We’re fighting because we theoretically deserve to exist too, but we certainly don’t feel that way right now. While the Alliance is screaming for vengeance and riled up we’re just wearily picking up our axes and sighing to go fight another fight we started.

It’s just the current environment, one that’s been reflected really well in your How to Redeem/Rebuild the Horde thread. You might be able to hype the Troll fanbase up for vengeance for Rastakhan, but everyone else? We’re the baddies and gonna lose anyways. Why bother?

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Unfortunately, that’s a question that I have to punt to a larger, and more in-depth discussion on the Barrens content that would come before this, which is also a conversation that’s out of scope for this proposal, and something that’s being discussed in other threads, some of which were linked here.

I hate to give that answer, but there’s already so much information going into this post, that I have to maintain focus. In broad strokes, I believe that motivation can be achieved by establishing what the Horde must protect, and making that memorable enough TO protect.

I guess you can say that for both sides too, if I think faction conflict…I have even less desire to WOW.

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Let’s explore this - because I feel like this sentiment is sitting behind a lot of the objections here.

This proposal fits within a larger frame to yes, have PVP have a place in the lore, but an expressly optional place. Like Vanilla’s expression of the faction war, these are conflicts that exist for you to participate in, but you are not forced to. You are free to ignore them and do other content, such as PVE content.

However, you seem to object to this. What is the problem with having this option?

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Several reasons:

Demotivated is only the tip of the iceberg.
Other much more dominant problems here are also the absolute worthlessness of the horde’s words, not a single orc has to be there, you know? The word of the horde would be - from new - absolutely worthless.

The night elves have every damn right to stake every horde member who even enters Ashenvale with 50 arrows until not a centimeter of free skin is left, it’s THEIR land.

I just want this conflict: Ashenvale, to finally end, preferably forever.

Border conflict or not, the horde has no business being here, after all, as I said before, it is a BORDER.

And as was explained, the Night Elves are striking across it into the Barrens. That makes securing this chokepoint vital for protecting the Horde’s citizens.

Such was explained in the background lore.

Your reply otherwise does not address my question.

Well I’ll be interested in seeing what you come up with for the other BG’s when those threads go up then.

Perhaps, but on a meta level I can’t see the Horde just needing to protect what they have being much of a motivation for a lot of players. The Horde capital is in a barren wasteland, a desert, a place chosen as self imposed penance for the first and second war. If the Night Elves want to live in the Barrens they can have it - maybe we could set up a land swap where they take over the Overgrowth in the northern part of the southern barrens in exchange for the rest of the Alliance finally pulling out of the Barrens and letting the Tauren resettle Camp Taurajo.

Here again, I don’t think you understand how demoralized some Horde players are right now. A lot of us probably would not care if the Night Elves threatened Horde civilians or took Horde lands. We’re just so tired of it all that you could do whatever and we likely wouldn’t care to put up a fight. There is no Horde faction pride anymore - we’re broken in that regard. No amount of threatening pig farmers and the collection of sticks and stones that pass for our settlements is going to change that.

Ah, this is an easy one. Have you ever been in a casual BG? Unless it’s absolutely necissary players would never assault the towers in Alterac, they would just rush to the opposite commander and try to kill them before the other faction did the same - ignoring all the NPC’s that can be rescued, allies that can be summoned, and other commanders that could be killed along the way. In a casual BG you are there to farm honor as quickly and efficiently as possible and that usually means bringing the BG to a quick conclusion.

With Warsong Gultch there is also a secondary problem - the players that always rush to the middle to farm kills. Not only do they not attempt to help capturing the enemy flag, sometimes they will ignore the enemy FC as well, and just focus on farming kills. Extra objectives and mechanics would likely be ignored by these players as well, while the players that are more focused on concluding the BG as fast as possible will focus solely on running the flag. Either way, the new mechanics would be ignored.

It also doesn’t help that your proposal for the mechanic is something that destroys the buff huts. In casual BG’s those buffs are rarely used anyways, and when they are they are often wasted by those who don’t know how to use them or are under geared and have no impact on the BG any. I don’t think anyone would care about destroying the huts or trying to protect them either. The only buff that gets regular use is the speed buff in the tunnel.

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