PVP Scenario Post Shadowlands Proposal - Overall Politics

This post is part of a larger series on a building a PVP Narrative, post Shadowlands. The OPs to the following posts are considered an integral part of this thread, and must be understood for this post to make sense. I apologize for the amount of content that these entail, but the overwhelming majority of the questions I have already fielded on this topic were already answered in one of these two posts.

Writing a PVP-Narrative, post Shadowlands: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/writing-a-pvp-narrative-post-shadowlands/801368

A Proposal for Warsong Gulch:
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/a-proposal-for-warsong-gulch/846078

One question that legitimately wasn’t answered was “what broke the treaty?”. I didn’t regard it as being terribly consequential, but as I thought more about the Arathi scenario, I found myself needing to answer it. So I will attempt to provide an overall political backdrop for this idea, and reference it in the Arathi thread.

The Fate of Sylvanas Windrunner

Begins to turn based on the fate of Sire Denathrius, and Anduin’s critiques of Sylvanas Windrunner’s stated goals and ideology of free will. The more she questions the Jailer’s motives, the more we learn the Jailer himself just spun Sylvanas a series of convincing lies. When Sylvanas leapt from Icecrown in an attempt to kill herself, he personally intervened to make it look as though she was destined for the maw in order to set his plan in motion. We learn this, and we learn as well that Sylvanas’s soul was split, just like Uther’s - only instead of that soul being allowed to live out its afterlife where it was intended, the Jailer worked to bring it into the maw, into his personal possession, so that this version of Sylvanas could never reveal herself to her former self. Sylvanas is in a moment of doubting when she uncovers this secret - coming upon a small, battered bundle of anima that is all that remains of her other self. It’s too fragile to speak or to move, and once Sylvanas and Anduin free it, it’s too weak to retain a cohesive form. There is no reconciliation between Sylvanas and her past self - that is denied to her, and she realizes first, that she was once again the fool, and second, that this same thing will happen to her.

This is her turning point, and when she starts to help Anduin and the heroes she once led like sheep to the slaughter to their deaths and eternal torment, to bring down the Jailer. Once this is done, it is decided that she should fill Sire Denathrius’s role in Revendreth. It should be, it is reasoned, that the champion of free will should work to find ways for the damned to find a second chance to exercise it.

While the world’s leaders try to keep this information secret, that fails, and this is why the Forsaken begin to revere Sylvanas as a sort of god, and believe that Sylvanas will see their sins - to the extent that they have them - as understandable when seen in their proper context. However, very few people canonically actually went to the Shadowlands, and once the Jailer is defeated, it is also decided that mortals should be expelled from the plane of death until it is their time. Because time in the Shadowlands works differently, everyone is deposited precisely at the moment when they entered - leaving the former scourge now with wills of their own - and a political mess for the leaders to now deal with.

Tyrande, Turalyon, and the Treaty

While Tyrande doesn’t intervene with Sylvanas’s redemption in order to stop the Jailer, and makes the bitter decision to prioritize her people over revenge, she still does not believe that the Horde won’t cause further suffering for her people, and she still refuses to sign the treaty, even if initially, she abides by it. The treaty provides that there is to be a phased withdrawal from Ashenvale and Lordaeron on the part of the respective occupying powers. While both of them are not technically in anyone’s control, given that substantial pockets of resistance remained in these areas, it didn’t stop both sides from trying to form permanent installations and settlements in their areas. Additionally, the Horde is still having to fight Sylvanas Loyalists, who fled to Ashenvale. The council chooses to fight to remove them from Ashenvale as a gesture of goodwill. Tyrande, Genn, and the militaristic new leader of the Draenic Triumvirate, a paladin named Strelnikov, wait until both sides are at their absolute weakest - and then they strike - arriving with a massive, well equipped force that Tyrande spent the “goodwill period” building up. This attack is what Night Elven questing in Ashenvale looks like, and while Tyrande technically had no treaty to break, because the move had Worgen and Draenie support this is regarded as the opening move in the next war.

Anduin didn’t really have a way to object - for two reasons. The first reason is because Tyrande stopped communicating with him. The second is because he’s on the losing end of a power struggle back home. Alleria has by this point fallen to the void, although she won’t show that until later. She has been acting as a corrupting influence on her husband, who has been convinced that the Alliance should not uphold its end of the bargain on the point of fixed withdrawal. He reasons that the Forsaken are a threat, that their populations should be scattered and where possible interned to prevent them from forming a cohesive threat to the Alliance. What’s really happening in the north is a genocide - one that nobles in Stormwind know about but look the other way to. Some commanders follow the internment orders to the letter - others are hunting forsaken down and exterminating them, and there are almost no objections to any of this. This is the situation that Forsaken players will quest through and seek to remedy as they seek to reform their nation, and throw back the Alliance.

Hopefully this helps to answer the question of how the conflict would even start. As always, I look forward to informed feedback.

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I feel like we may get something like this before the end of Shadowlands, and the Paula Ticks could be much different by the time Shadowlands ends.

In MoP, we spent alot of time in the new lands of the expac, but brought it home near the end of the expac to the world we are used to for SoO. Same with BfA - after the events in Zandalar, Kul Tiras, and Nazjatar, the last patch kind of brings it all home. It is two old zones that are redesigned. Something like you describe could be an 8.3 or 8.4, before Shadowlands is even over.

Perhaps we come back for some reason. Alleria does want Quelthalas under the banner of the Alliance. Turalyon wants to secure Alliance holdings and take back land they lost - which could be Quelthalas or Lordaeron. And Yrel is out there - she might communicate with Turalyon somehow, and get him to bring her to Azeroth through some magical ceremony. Or with the Vindicaar.

Maybe because I tend to favor the Horde, as I play it most, but this would be a good time for the Horde to be victims and heroes while the Alliance may actually be “morally grey” or out right villains.

I posted before about a Horde withdrawal from Night Elven lands being ordered by their council, and being largely followed, but it isn’t fast enough for Tyrande, so they massacre the Horde civilians and soldiers as they are withdrawing. That would please many Night Elf fans who want bloody vengeance, and give the Horde a reason to fight - if only to help their people out of Night Elf territory. And a defense of Forsaken or Blood Elf homelands would also have a similar vibe.

Your last paragraph is kind of where I’m going with Tyrande’s actions, only we throw in the element that the Horde had tried to clear out the Sylvanas loyalists as a gesture of goodwill - which Tyrande takes advantage of in order to launch her offensive on both the loyalists and the Horde that was trying to take those loyalists out. Kind of like a Broken Front sort of scenario - or ganking on a national scale.

Why do you need a scenario to pvp?

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Because lore is a statistically significant piece of video game enjoyment that would enrich that PVP.

Now that I’ve answered that question, how about another one? Why does no one ask this question about PVE?

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No, I’m rather done and over with Sylvanas. I just want to endure her Shadowlands presence and then kill her and be done with it.

And why exactly is the Draenei leadership randomly changing? Velen leads the Draenei and if a new Triumvirate were to be form, he still lead that. I get wanting to group the Kalimdor Alliance forces together but it would be better to have the Lightbound and Yrel entering Azeroth and agreeing to help them over randomly making changes to the Draenei leadership.

Because PVE is how the lore is experienced. Fighting foes like the Twilight’s Hammer and the Scourge, going against the big bads like the Lich King, Lei Shen, and N’Zoth. The lore is already there to enrich the story and PVE experience.

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Because PVE is how the lore is experienced. Fighting foes like the Twilight’s Hammer and the Scourge, going against the big bads like the Lich King, Lei Shen, and N’Zoth. The lore is already there to enrich the story and PVE experience.

This is an is/ought fallacy. Blizzard has chosen to do this - this does not mean that doing this and only this was the optimal route.

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I know a lot of people, particularly of the “let’s merge the factions” variety, believe that there needs to be some lore justification for PvP the fact is that PvP is inherently justified as an integral part of the Warcraft IP.

It doesn’t matter that Jaina touched Thrall’s shoulder or Anduin helped carry Saurfang’s lifeless corpse into Orgrimmar. It doesn’t matter that Saurfang agreed with Sylvanas that a 4th war was inevitable even though it made no sense after teaming up in Legion.

The Faction War is Warcraft and that will never, and should never change.

Sylvanas and Tyrande are not necessary to fuel future PvP conflicts. Sometimes the WoW community likes to put these arbitrary constraints on what the Devs are allowed to do based on the current zeitgeist of the game. “Sylvanas has to die” “Tyrande has to get revenge” meanwhile the story is very likely to go in a direction that no one anticipates because it always does.

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I had a smaller concept.

Thrall’s promise to retrieve Sylvanas’s head to Tyrande is Broken by Baine who offered such a prize to Bwonsamdi to return Rastakhan which will result in offending Tyrande and the night elves believing the horde can never be trusted.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/970165/original.jpg?1494279425

Because the story is driven by NPCs and not the players. The outcomes of BGs do not change the political or strategic landscape. They’re outside of time, as it were, which is why they can be repeated indefinitely.

Now, take a universe like Warhammer 40K, specifically the story of the 13th Black Crusade. Games Workshop sanctioned thousands of battle reports all around the world and utilized the results to drive the narrative of the Crusade to a point. The writers at GW had a story in mind but allowed the players to direct the outcomes of different battles within the story.

Blizzard, in the other hand, has a story they want to write players be damned. This is evidenced by their lackluster loyalist quest line that got stapled on last minute and amounted to nothing. The PC is just a window into the story they want to tell and not a necessary part of the story.

:pancakes:

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Kek
/10char

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I will preface this by saying it probably belongs in the “Unpopular Opinion” thread… but I liked the idea of Warfronts as a concept, and I like how at the end of the expac, the Warfronts had a conclusion that laid the ground work for story development. Even if it went totally opposite of anything I would like, and my side lost it all.

I guess as it was released, it was more Faction based PvE, but I think there is something to that concept that should be brought back and tinkered with. The Gameplay was abysmal - I used them for Alt gear catch ups and then ignored them - but I liked them as a concept, if that makes any sense. I think there was talk about making a PvP option… but I don’t know if it made it to live.

There is a kernel of a concept that is neat. A Warfront where we fight each other all expac, and there is a resolution at the end of the expac, sounds great. And that’s coming from a Sylvanas Loyalist who just about lost every cause he fought for in BfA - so I am not one of those who requires a victory to find enjoyment in the story.

Again, I liked that. I am kind of thankful for it, especially in hindsight. It is almost just a small dash of RP flavor, like drinking coffee for no Gameplay reason because your Character drinks coffee before Boss pulls.

I got to say “no” even if events did not go my way. If I didn’t have that option, I would have been more disgusted. I wear my lack of a Saurfang Toy as a mark of pride. I knew we loyalists would get less toys than those who played the game the way Blizz wanted us to… they even joked about deleting or permanently killing those who made “the wrong” choice. And I still went that path 3 times, refusing to help Saurfang. It was a small comfort.

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If you’re trying to have the post shadowlands game changed, one… it’s extremely late in the day as the planning for the next expac is most likely pretty far along and 2… this isn’t the forum for it. the devs don’t bother with this place at all.

Arena is Alliance versus Alliance, rated battlegrounds are Horde versus Horde and we have the mercenary mode, where everyone can spontaneously decide to fight for the other faction. Ashran was so utterly flimsy with its ‘lore justification’ that up to this day we’re not even sure if it even is part of the overall lore.

I’d rather turn all the battlegrounds into sort of training scenarios, where soldiers from both factions fight in a controlled environment to hone their skills and abilities. Something like CTF can then easily become part of the overall lore…and you can start creating BGs everywhere you want.

“Horde versus Alliance” is such an utterly ridiculous concept at this stage as the stakes are continuously raised higher and higher by Blizzard that I’d rather drop it completely and outright remove it from the overall lore.

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Okay - I don’t want to turn battlegrounds into training scenarios, or trivialize them, or have them disconnected from the lore. I don’t agree that mercenary mode was a good thing. Overall - I disagree with the underlying presumption that PVE is the only game mode that matters, and that PVP should exist in some disconnected twilight zone and not get story content.

I think that’s discriminatory in its intent and application. You’re advocating for a nonsensical, disconnected experience for one endgame mode choice, and a cohesive one for the other. That’s not fair - unless you’re about to advocate either for a tiered payment system where PVErs have to pay more for their additional consideration, or for turning dungeons from thematic, story-bound and lore-rich events into pointless “training exercises” as well.

Now if you just don’t like to PVP, or don’t like the faction war - that’s okay - sequestering this content off into PVP-only content means that you are free to ignore it, and the scenario assumes that it is. (i.e. No MOP forced-to-PVP-for-your-cloak quests). But apart from that, I don’t feel that you have the standing to swoop in and declare that an entire game mode should be trivialized in the way that you just argued.

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I never stated if the mercenary mode was good or bad. I simply stated the obvious that all pretenses of lore were thrown out of the window the moment the mercenary mode got introduced.

“There’s an island with resources/an artifact/something else important. Go there and collect it together with some ragtag band of misfits. If some other faction is there deal with them swiftly.” There. PvP-story-content.

What else do you really want for that? In a PvP-battleground itself you cannot tell any kind of story and any storytelling for PvP would happen outside of the actual activity anyway. The closest Blizzard got was with Seething Shore (terrible BG by the way) with some throwaway lines from Shaw and Nathanos…and it was never spoken off ever again.

And then again even the oldest BGs only had some very marginal lore attached to them. Warsong and Arathi were mostly border skirmishes between Alliance and Horde with only Alterac having some lore to it and even then it was few and in between.

Hell…can anyone tell me the Eyes of the Storm storyline? Why would anyone fight over some ruins in an area which started to fall apart by the time BC came out?

I mean you can tell that to Blizzard, as they treated PvP like a second-thought throughout all of BfA. Here are corruptions which you can only get in PvE-content, but which are so stupidly powerful that they completely break any kind of competitive PvP.

Actually I am primarily a PvP-player on my EU-account, but the overall faction narrative belongs in a trash can. It’s stupid, it doesn’t add anything to the game, it doesn’t advance the story in a meaningful way as “status quo is god” and at best we destroy things left and right but never rebuild them and as such we’re left with a crumbling world of Azeroth. BfA was without a doubt the lowest point in storytelling WoW has ever gotten and no flashy CGI-cinematic will cover this up.

I don’t need a narrative for PvP as PvP itself is mostly a fight of skill between players.

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Kyalin’s made it pretty clear in other threads that what she wants is a chance to feel powerful on behalf of the Night Elves against the Horde, as a way of remedying the perception that the NEs have been turned into “pity objects.” I make no judgments as to whether that’s a good or bad use of PVP, because as a non-PVP-er, I don’t feel qualified to say.

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A lot of your post falls prey to the is/ought fallacy and I will not reply to the points that do. Regarding this:

What else do you really want for that? In a PvP-battleground itself you cannot tell any kind of story and any storytelling for PvP would happen outside of the actual activity anyway

The Warsong Gulch proposal more specifically addresses that and the sorts of mechanics that I would see implemented. As discussed previously, that is required reading for this post - the answer to your question can be found there.

Ever stop to think that if you need to link to another post to explain things regarding this post your point might be a little too convoluted?

:pancakes:

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Sorry - it’s a big topic and people ask a lot of questions that I can’t revisit every time. I need to be able to refer back to previous content to answer those questions - otherwise every one of these posts would be way longer.