A change Frost needs for 10.0

Classes Death Knight
163

Who says they have to? What’s stopping them from baking things like the 2pce or 4pce into the spec going forward in some capacity?

Except it’s still inferior, I have run simulations / tests personally and observed others’ and in the current format, icecap is still not good enough.

Disagree on a personal level. 2H frost before 9.2 was too slow. It didn’t feel good. These “inflated stats” and particularly the 4pce bonus have made the spec flow much better and be actually enjoyable.

We are working with what we have and thinking about options to make the spec play better within its current confines. These are just ideas.

My own ideas are in other threads in the DK forums, buried somewhere, and those ideas consider addressing other items in the spec than obliteration windows. Other people have done the same thing. There have been many interesting ideas to help the spec become better. This is one of them.

164

i hope there are some defensives in the spec or class tree

165

History says its most likely to happen. How many tier sets have made it into just being a part of the spec? Its also not the only thing going into this issue.

Icecap is bad with a 2h and it works much better with DW. Its just the reality of it. It sounds like if you arent willing or “cant” swap to another talent then the issue isnt prevalent enough to warrant a change to KM so that it stacks to 2.

People can play slower, even if you have to wait a few milliseconds before pressing Frost Strike or Howling Blast just to see if you get a KM proc naturally. If its happening so often waiting a small amount of time should net a bigger gain in damage especially for 2h which has an Obliterate steroid. What would you rather do, wait .3sec to do a 33k Obliterate? Or would you rather just go Sonic the Hedgehog and use an ability that does a fraction of that and get a proc naturally while in the process of that lower damaging ability? Swing timers would help as well so you know when an auto is going to happen and can time your Obliterates.

But if there is this much going into an “issue” caused by a multitude of things where you might want to get an addon, artificially play slower, have KM stack to 2 I would way its not really worth trying to fix over just axing it.

I mean seriously, people have wanted to use other talents with 2h, some even Icecap, and its still not worth it? To me it sounds like the issue just doesnt really exist to the point where you want changes to the spec. If it happens in the last 10% of the overall expansion I dont consider that anything to make a change on.

There are other things I can point to that would need changed. Again KM rank 2 is one of the things that I think was a mistake. Getting it late into leveling made a lot of people quit and after that I remember people like Loc saying how bad the spec was and Obliterate and KM didnt happen nearly enough.

I also find it weird… well hilarious, at how long people fought for this slow juggernaut just for the spec to get faster and more people like it in the process. We used to not have to worry about crit at because KM was pretty much crit for 2 main abilities for frost and just improved with haste. I would rather see Obliterate go back to how it was, fully physical, and the mastery be changed to Brittle bones which would bypass armor and probably have a small increase to attack power because once you get to 100% armor pen you are done. That would basically make everything magic damage over just increasing frost damage.

166

You seem really passionate about km not going to 2 stacks. Do you have any reasons for them not to implement this?

Keep in mind that although you’re right that is not a NEED for the spec, that is not a reason against because it is still a positive change even if a small QoL.

167

He’s mentioned it a few times throughout the thread.

It’s a temporary fix that will go away with the new expansion. Right now it’s only prevalent with the over inflation of stats (such as Crit and then the 2 piece offering more Crit).

Once the new expansion comes, KM may not even work the same way. Who knows? But with the new expansion comes new levels, and with every new set of levels, stats get set back to a minimum once hitting that max level.

So just from entering DF, we’re going to lose 1) tier set, 2) inflated crit, 3) legendaries, 4) current borrowed power.

It’s a waste of time and resources to implement it. And again, extremely temporary.

QoL should last longer than a few months. Again this has been an issue all expansion long. But it’s only being brought up now because of the 4 reasons I mentioned above. It’ll go away, and then:

168

Ok so the only reason against is waste of dev resources? Dev resource management is a valid reason.

The fact that we have inflated stats now isn’t a reason against, because stats will inflate again. It’s still a net positive change with no downside.

If the only reason against with an actual negative outcome is waste of resources, then it’s not really an issue since it’s such a minor change that requires no tuning. It’s just a tweak of existing coding. Not creating anything new or complicated.

So overall it would be a net positive change with little to no downside.

169

Actually, it could be an edit a line of code.

But hey, too busy turning women into fruits.

170

This is a thread with ideas to improve the class next expansion…

171

Then why wasn’t this an issue until double legendary + tier set? Why didn’t this thread pop at New Years 2021?

Because it wasn’t an issue. And when the borrowed power goes away that makes it seem like we “need” this change, it reverts back to a non issue where double procs rarely happen again.

And who knows how Obliteration or KM is going to work in DF?

See above.

172

I have been running into killing machine overlaps for a very long time, because i have been maining frost for over 9 years now

Its happened in legion, its happened in bfa, its happened in shadowlands. There is no negative to having killing machine be a buff that can double stack even if it doesnt occur often. And this becomes the case even more so when a talent like obliteration exists where you can force procs to occur ontop of the natural ones.

You have no argument bro, you just dont. You cannot name a singular downside to a change like this, This sort of change is nothing but positive for the spec no matter what lense you look at it from

1 Like
173

Yeah, many of them.

Its all artificial and not baseline.

If we take the KM rate from CN and now 2h on Sire with Obliteration had a 15% uptime for KM and Obliterate had about a 50% crit rate. Thats counting all crits so not just KM procs. Just using Sire because I remember frost being best melee on that fight. Going to use DW because I cant be bothered looking for a 2h log, Holondrus, 40% uptime on KM now, 80% Obliterate crit rate. So its at least double the KM uptime from the start to now and people arent following what is best “according to the sims” which would add even more haste which would increase these things even more. A lot of this inflation of stats arent just from raw stats and are just flat out % increases on using an ability.

How much haste can people get without calculating in haste from gear? 15% from ERW, 30% from hero… thats already 45% from things we already have. Phearomones which is another 15% paired with NF Deaths Due. Field of Blossoms 15% increase. Thats like 75% haste before haste from gear is added onto that. Thats the inflation im talking about and when are most of these things used together? During PoF windows with Obliteration creating this problem thats not even really a problem but a small portion of the overall gameplay. Oh… thats not even factoring in the attack speed from Icy Talons either.

The increased haste, with the increased crit, leads to more KM procs sometimes more than what you can spend. And with that being the case… how many stacks do you stop with? Just 2 stacks? What about 3 or 4 for DW?

Yet another problem you run into is the weapons being split. I know you guys hate hearing about it but its a part of the spec and something that people have to acknowledge. There is a difference in how many KM procs each weapon gets. So if you are needing 1 extra stack for 2h, you might need 2 more for DW just because of the rate of attacks going out. Should we do that just because of this inflated % increases to haste and crit without haste from gear calculated in at all?

And then when you go into the next expansion, which realistically this is a topic on 10.0 and not now and if past expansions is any indication of how things will work on going into 10.0 (leveling zones at the very least) most of this stuff is going to be disabled. Azerite armor was disabled going into SL… why who the hell knows, but it was. So why wouldnt they disable borrowed power from this expansion going into the next. Then the amount of crit and haste needed to get 1% is going to go up, slowly seeing a decline in any usefulness this QoL change would have had to a point where people will be saying “Why can we have 2 stacks of KM when we cant make use out of it”. BFA and Legion this wasnt a complaint. Did it happen? Probably, especially with corruptions in BFA running Icecap, but again inflated stats from a borrowed power system isnt something you should build a class/spec around.

Again, most of the people who are cheering on this change are the same people who were saying frost was garbage and Obliterate was a wet noodle compared to others, nothing was going to help it, KM procs didnt happen enough… so now you have that with 2 stacks of KM… why? Because of a tier set and some legendaries from a time that doesnt exist anymore?

Its not a need, at all. The base spec does not need 2 stacks of KM. I would say it needs a hell of a lot of other things before this, particularly looking at Obliterate and KM rank 2 and addressing the complaints that have lasted from pre-patch to now.

174

You still didn’t mention a negative for having 2 stacks. Just a lot of rambling.

Having 2 stacks means you can avoid losing a km. You are unlikely going to get 3 or 4 more natural KMs in the spacer of one GCD. Using a KM proc should always priority, you shouldn’t be letting 3 or 4 go by.

175

The argument is: it’s a temporary fix for a temporary problem.

Your only argument is: it happens 3% of gameplay so i need it! Give me a solid argument aside from “yeah it happens once or twice a minute so we absolutely need this to fix Frost”.

He’s mentioned like 2 or 3 reasons. Did you even read the post??

This is evidence that you didn’t read what he said at all.

And you could easily stack 3 or 4 KM procs. Especially on DW. 2 Frost Strikes back to back = 2 + a natural KM stack or two as well.

And if you can bank them, why is there a need to consume it right away? If that’s the case, that defeats the argument of needing a second stack. You should never be letting one go by. So get an add-on that tracks swing timers so you know when you can press FS or HB so that way you don’t force one on top of a natural one.

Hey look at that. Solved the problem.

176

I looked at the Changelog and Obliteration have been introduced since Legion. Chillpills played longer than this. There was no other way to get a KM proc other than naturally from AA. Not needed before, needed now. This is a long-term solution that benefits the spec.

Considering it’s Kelliste we’re talking about, expecting others to read things thoroughly without doing so in return. Maybe put in bulletpoints to read things easier? Ain’t nobody got time to read all his ramblings.

I don’t blame Tofurious not to read into Kell’s posts; I’m taking Kell’s posts with a grain of salt.

… Why would you use 2 Frost Strikes in a row during Pillar of Frost?

… and here I can say that you never got around the fact that the idea of having a KM getting a second stack is that you should never want to have the second stack. The second stack is simply there for a grace period for an otherwise a wasted proc. You should consume KM right away to prevent even more wasted KM procs.

Think of like this. If you get a KM stack? You should use Obliterate.

You got a second KM stack? You REALLY should use Obliterate.

You expect people to be reliant on MORE addons than the game already does?

Just get a swing timer add-on and git gud at tracking crits! 4head

Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

177

Assuming nothing changes about KM/Obliteration. But you know things get funked up during new expansions and what not. It may be a solution now and be obsolete in 10.0. Who’s to know at this point.

If you can bank them, you could essentially keep yourself from capping on RP by burning 2 Obliterates and then burning a few FS.

It was more of a sarcastic posting than to be taken seriously :stuck_out_tongue:

Don’t have to get the add-on. Can simply track swings yourself. But it does solve the problem. Wait for the swing, see if you get the proc, if not, then FS away and force one. Get a proc, burn the Obliterate and have the KM proc chance reset, and rinse and repeat.

178

If Obliteration remains to force a KM proc from spending a global along with a natural KM proc. Wasted procs can and will happen regardless of its likelihood.

Considering RP is more expendable than Runes, it’d be much more impactful to use Obliterate on every other global that consumes KM. If you happen to get a second proc, that’s a good bonus.

Remember, you only get a forced KM proc during Pillar of Frost and since it lasts for 12 seconds every global counts. Since you get strength for each rune you spend, you want to use Obliterates as often as possible.

Since you get KM from FS during Pillar of Frost, an ability that cost RP than runes, you do not want to use 2 Frost Strike back-to-back to bank KM.

Fair enough.

I don’t think people would pay attention to swings during their burst period.

Sure, we can do that. But it’d be better to just spend whatever globals we have on weaving Obliterates and spend as many runes as we can.

Determining if we get a proc or not takes a bit of processing time to register that “oh I didn’t get a proc” and then the next thing you know you get 2 KM procs after from 0.

RNG being RNG, having 2 KM stacks lowers margin of error.

1 Like
179

So now the argument you want to stand by is that if you play the rotation wrong you might lose more stacks as DW.

Guess what… Still not an argument against having 2 stacks, because having 2 stacks means you’re still losing 1 less km that you would currently.

Im not sure if you even play the class, but as someone who has been playing fDK through the highest content I can vouch from personal experience that having a second stack would have been useful even since the start of the xpac.

Unless someone brings up an actual argument of why having 2 stacks would be a net negative I think I’m done with this thread.

182

And 2h is unlikely to get 2 natural KM procs to warrant the change.

What you replied with had absolutely nothing to do with the overall topic at hand. This is basically exclusive to PoF windows with Obliteration and a QoL change for that with inflated stats. You literally said nothing of any worth.

What you say is just a lot of rambling just shows how weak the argument for 2 stacks are.

DW has been getting 2 natural KM procs for a long time without Obliteration. 2h shouldnt with a base swing timer of 3.6 seconds. But this isnt about “natural” km procs for 2h now is it? Its about forcing a KM proc and getting a natural in the process. Are you seriously saying DW cant get 2 natural KM procs with over double the auto attacks as 2h while forcing KM proc through Frost Strike or Howling Blast?

So yes, it should stack up to 3 with that scenario because it would be a good QoL and DW would be able to make use of more of the KM procs that they miss due to the artificially inflated stats.

183

There was no other way to get KM to proc other than naturally? Thats false, and if it wasnt needed before its not needed now despite getting natural KM procs twice in a row before you could spend it and the countless threads talking about wanting KM to stack up to 2 because you can be in the process of spending KM and it get overwritten by another KM proc losing out on one of the KM procs.

DW natural KM proc generation absolutely had this problem prior to Obliteration existing. Or another one of the complaints was when the spec was split but KM could still be consumed by Frost Strike or Obliterate and 2h players complaining that they would be in the process of using Frost Strike when a KM would proc and it would be consumed by the Frost Strike when they wanted to use it on Obliterate due to the Obliterate steroid with MotFW.

Its not a long term solution, its a now solution due to artificially inflated stats from legendaries, soulbinds, now usable talents that is giving an attack speed boost for more autos leading to more KM procs, RM giving more crit.

Deathchill was a way to force a crit prior to Obliteration. Its since been changed from that, and it included more spells than just Obliterate.

If you arent going to read something dont call it ramblings. Sorry but people who dont read have no room to talk about what others write. How do you know its ramblings, you didnt read it.

I really dont get you guys.

184

Then how else do you get a KM proc before Obliteration existed?