Ayyyy, look who came! 
Pretty much almost every Frost Dk vet love OPâs idea.
5 Likes
Its not a need though. Getting 1 proc in a 12 second window is a far cry from a need. Say you want it, fine, want it all you want, but a need is a major stretch.
Its not detrimental to the state of the spec, at all. In fact it wasnt an issue this entire expansion until at the very least the 2pc, and further 4pc since it has almost 1 frost strike worth of damage added when you consume a KM proc.
Its not a need and I would rather Blizzard spend their time on bigger issues than KM 2 stack.
Ive yet to see a single DW player complain about this even though it happens more often. I mean DW is already getting more overall damage out of Obliterate between Obliteration specs, by 400-500k more damage overall. Higher crit % as well by at least 10%.
If DW players that are playing Obliteration arent concerned about it in the slightest who are more impacted what is the issue here?
Everything is inflated at this point. Crit is inflated, haste is inflated with NF and Phearomones.
Whats going to happen when all that goes away? Are people going to complain that 2 KM stacks is being wasted because KM isnt proccing enough?
Its like a never ending string of complaints from 1 side of the isle that you call the âvetsâ which is made up of like 4 people at this point.
Most people are on the game enjoying what they have before it gets taken away going into 10.0 and then who the hell knows what the specs are going to look like.
I would say all the dead talents are needs, 2 stack KM is just people whining about something.
Youre missing the entire point bro, You can do all the theory crafting you want, you can bring up âinflated statsâ all you want, You can mention duel wield players all you want
None of that changes that 2stack killing machine functionally helps frost more than single stack does.
None of that changes the fact that overlapping killing machine procs by chance will occur and that you WILL lose damage because of it, And you never had any control over the auto proc to begin with.
The entire post is simply a QoL change to make our class functionally better. I can make 100 posts like this one about many different things frost dk needs changes on, But youre upset that I decided to make one about killing machine lol, classic.
Everyone here knows our talents suck and need rework, Ill go ahead and say that just to make you happy but it still doesnt change killing machine needing to double stack
5 Likes
How often does the overlap of KM procs actually happen? Or do you really not know, and therefore this whole idea is just an imaginary need?
Getting a KM proc resets everything and you start back at 0. So the likeliness of getting a KM proc and then getting another KM proc on your very next auto-attack is minimal. Sure, as you said, itâs a QoL thing.
The âit happened one time in my last run and it just made me think âhow much dps am i losing out on by missing KM procsâ, so i think this is a needed changeâ isnât a good argument to stand upon.
If you want a good QoL improvement, Kell came up with a perfectly good one:
This would improve rune regeneration considerably, and would lower the time/chances of KM proccâing while globaled and as such, you wouldnât need to worry about having KM stack because well frankly, your rotation would be running smoother due to higher rune generation.
And this could carry over into the next expansion better.
^^ heâs got a point with that. Once the 4 piece goes away, and that extra crit, and the inflated stats with the new level cap, youâre not going to see KM procs overlapping. Congratulations you got a QoL for a few months. Whereas having fully depleted runes regenerate first (since rune generation is an integral part of DKs), could be useful from here on out.
Bro you dont understand the post either literally stop coming to this forum
The overlap occurs during obliteration windows when you can force proc killing machine with frost strike and howling blast
If the proc occurs while you are in the gcd of those abilities during your burst you overlap procs and essentially lose out on an obliterate which is a big damage loss
Everything else you said about rune regeneration has NOTHING TO DO with this post AT ALL LOOOOOL get a room with kelliste bro
3 Likes
And you donât understand the issue. I understand how KM procs can overlap. But the actual probability of it overlapping is minimal since when you force a KM proc, it resets back at 0 meaning your next melee swing (while in the GCD) isnât likely to proc another KM. Does it every now and then? Yes. Enough to worry about? No.
Youâre claiming that this KM stacking to 2 business is for QoL. But when a better QoL option is brought before you, you turn it away because âit has nothing to do with QoL which is what this thread is aboutââŠyeah okay. You donât like being told your ideas arenât worth the time you spent thinking them up do ya?
May not want to step outside. The world really isnât much of the echo chamber you wish it to be
No because even if you dont get the 2stack often from having good procs, there are still instances where you have to kite away from bosses or youre being kited by players and you can double proc 2 killing machines with howling blast in the meantime so when you DO reconnect you can just obliterate twice to make up on lost time. This change serves a very good mechanical function to frost no matter how you spin it hence why DKS theory crafter biceps had to come in and say himself it was a good change
But you dont play dk at all so i highly doubt you couldve thought about a situation like that. You and that druid come here and post replies in total ignorance and you dont even know it
1 Like
If youâre using Obliteration, it will happen. Not often, but it will.
Thatâs an awful change. Why is it a better QoL change behind a RE restrictively fill a fully depleted rune? Runic Power already feels awful to spend as a filler to restore a rune and youâre endorsing a change to make it worse?
RE already refills a fully depleted rune if you have more than 3 runes spent. I donât think endorsing Kelliste out of all Dks will do you any good.
Once the tierset goes away, the KM value diminishes and itâs BoS all over again. Many Frost Dks HATE this ability and 2H Frost will be back into the backburner turning the spec into âdeath from a thousand cutsâ again.
If anyone has any complaints about rune management, itâd be a lot of Night Fae Dks since the covenant ability demands a lot of runes and globals to make it work. It only happens to be meta now through artificial means like double leggo, Phearomones (which I donât like since tanks move out of it) and other inflated secondary stats.
EDIT: Allowing KM to stack twice is a huge plus for Obliteration and it would be a better contender against BoS should the tiersets go away. Better yet, it would make both Icecap and Obliteration a better choice between them and BoS.
3 Likes
Nope. RE refills the first rune spent. So only having 1 second left on 2 runes, or 4 seconds left on the next 2 runes, RE will refill the one with 1 second left.
So with what I described, youâll have 3 runes up in 1 second as opposed to to 2 runes in 1 second with how RE currently works. Assuming RE recharges the last rune spent. This would result in more rune generation throughout the course of a fight.
This would lower the already low chances of KM overwriting itself, give more resources throughout a dungeon/raid, and be a net increase in damage overall. And it would feel smoother (almost like a high haste build, without needing to gear into haste).
Iâve disagreed with him in the past. But I stop and take into consideration what everyone says. Which is why i was able to agree and disagree with you in the same post. He makes a good point. It would be a better QoL that wouldnât cause:
Edit: This may actually close the gap between BoS and Obliterate a bit since itâs benefited from spending RP, which BoS strays away from during itâs window.
It happening once per fight is technically âfunctionally betterâ than a single stack all the time.
But yes, these things do matter. 8% increase of crit, 15% increase of haste from Phearomones, a 3 second window of haste from Field of Blossoms, it all adds into making this happen, and someone who claims themself to be this god among men should be able to see this without being told by a person who you say âdoesnt play the gameâ.
You dont actually lose out on damage or much damage at all at the moment because you can only do what the system allows you to do. But again, KM is also inflated right now with it also firing off a GA which is basically a mini-frost strike. You feel like you are missing out on damage, but you can only spend so much resources.
You say âneedâ but its standing as the second best melee spec right now in the raid says it doesnt âneedâ anything. You want it. Why would I be upset about you making a post about Killing Machine exactly? What is this false assumption that you are trying to put out there?
There is a much bigger problem with Killing Machine that people have actually been complaining about this entire expansion, or its the cause of a major complaint. Its that Obliterates damage outside of KM sucks, that is directly caused by Obliterate being frost damage when consuming a KM proc forcing the low end of Obliterate to be pretty low and why it feels like absolute hell to level with which was a complaint that some of these âvetsâ had going from 50-58.
Im not actually upset, you got all twisted and bent out of shape because I just asked for some damn clarification on what you meant. You are insane.
???
You can only recharge 3 runes at a time and RE will refill the most depleted rune.
What Frost DK ability that cost 3 runes in 1 second in a same GCD? Army of the Dead??? That also cost 1 rune. Such that, this scenario does not exist.
Everything else in that statement is irrelevant. Runic Empowerment restores your most depleted rune. Whether it is 3 runes or 4 runes.
⊠What?
Please read my statement you quoted in your reply again, carefully. Afterwards, answer how you think the absence of 4 pieces of KM would close the gap between Obliteration and BoS.
I actually didnt come up with that suggestion. It was in the game before. There is a problem with that suggestion as well, it makes it so you dont want to spend RP if you dont have fully depleted runes. But on the flip side, you would have at least 3 runes to spend if you didnt have a fully depleted rune.
It just sucks gaining a rune that is 90% finished. Its like 1 second before its back which is less than the base GCD.
What would be even better is if we didnt have a copy of the rogue energy system with our runes. Blizzard used that example going into cata of what runes would be going to comparing 2 runes as a single energy bar and that you cant start recharging the second half of the energy bar before the first half is done. In actuality it was like we had 6 energy bars all filling at the same time and they changed it so haste would have some impact on our resource generation. It was a bad QoL change and I would rather they all just started recharging as soon as you spent the rune.
Who cares? Its a 12 second window with an inevitability that it will happen. It happening 1 time each window is not enough of a reason to call it a âneedâ.
If multiple people dont understand your post, maybe its your fault.
That says 0 about Obliteration and talks about the rotation and is quite wrong rotationally. Again this god among men DK vet should know this.
Thats why I asked if you were talking about Obliteration windows or not. You didnt want to clarify your post until over 60 posts later.
How damn childish are you? Seriously you need some professional help all because I asked for clarification you start acting like a jackass. This is a thread about changes for 10.0 is it not? Thats the title of this thread right? Not only that but you clearly forgot that you asked for peoples thoughts about making the class functionally work better.
Here is my thoughts, 2 stack KM does 0 to make the class function better, not only does it not impact the entire class, it doesnt really impact the entire spec that it is a part of to warrant any changes.
You also said
So since you didnt come up with a change you want to say âlawl thats not what this thread is aboutâ while asking for that very thing within your post.
Why are you using PoF when you dont have the uptime? Or you have the knowledge that you are going to have to run off. Might as well make Obliterate ranged for BoS users that have to run away so they can keep BoS going if you are going to use that run out argument. Or should they know when something is going to happen and not use BoS until you can make good use out of it.
Not often huh? So then its not actually a problem that âneedsâ changed. You dont see entire factory lines shut down because 1-1000 items have a defect. It happens, but its not often, you just throw aside the defect and keep going. The fact that Chillpills thinks a defect every so often is worth this amount of insults to 2 other people shows how unstable he is.
RE refills any rune, but it does refill the ones that have the longest CD first, those that are fully depleted. The point was more of saying it sucks having 1 second left on a rune and RE procs. You dont want to overcap on RP so thats the first thing that you should spend if you have a lot of RP and you have 5 runes, getting an RE proc at that point, and not when things are depleted as you have said you can spend RP 3 times and not get a proc.
Not quite. BoS is still the overall favorite even with the set bonus. I dont get where you get this many frost dkâs hate this ability. BoS hasnt actually went anywhere with this set bonus. Not only that but Obliteration simmed higher than BoS for me in ST so I dont know where this stuff is coming from. You could play Obliteration if you wanted to prior to the 4pc.
Right now, it happens often because of stat inflation. Without the stat inflation, itâs not as often. Either way, KM procs are still valuable. Valuable enough for Chillpills to make this post. Especially 2-handers, which I understand that you donât give a two ratsâ behind about.
Making a proc to a defected product is a poor comparison.
How is your bolded statement any different from what I said: RE refills the most depleted rune.
Actually, all Rune generating abilities like BoS refills the most depleted rune. In your words, the longest CDs.
Also, does your italicized text really matter when the spec have passives (and actives) that encourages you to spend as many runes as possible?
EDIT: Aside of your statement of spending RP 3 times on a FS not getting a rune. That flipping sucks. But if you have 5 runes sitting⊠Why would you spend RP?
Iâm talking about without the set bonus. Yes, Obliteration increased in value dramatically especially with the value with KM but the effect of the 4pc also benefits for BoS because of Razorice.
I remember that many Frost Dks donât like this talent being competitive. Yâknow, BfA stuff. Kind of like VF for Spriests. Obliteration was actually a joke during that time.
BoS is also great, if not better, than Obliteration without the set piece because not only itâs an ability that challenges the players to race against its cost, but also it grants a lot of runes, has no GCD and it fits very well with builds like Rolling RW Build.
A RP cost that doesnât cost a global. Thatâs⊠really good.
1 Like
Sorry let me rephrase what I said.
When I refer to most depleted rune, i meant the most recent on the recharge list. The one with the longest recharge time.
RE refills Runes in the order they were used. I meant to propose that it instead recharges the most recent Rune used.
So if you go Oblit > Oblit > FS > FS
Youâre down 4 runes. Runes 1 and 2 are recharging. Rune 3 is recharging, 4th is sitting idle.
FS procs RE and recharges number 4. Runes 1 and 2 have one seconds left, and Rune 3 has two seconds left. All 3 are recharging. Second FS procs RE again, and instead of it taking Rune 1 with 1 second left, itâll take Rune 3 with two seconds instead. So in the 1 second of a global from FS, you proc RE and regenerate rune 3, and Rune 1 and 2 come up in the same global. Thus getting three runes in a single second as opposed to how RE works now where it would recharge Rune 1, and then in that same second, Rune 2 would recharge naturally, resulting in only 2 runes within a global as opposed to the 3.
And scratch the Oblit > BoS part. My napkin math was a bit off. I forgot how much runic power BoS used every second.
Yeah, I was looking at it a bit differently by having it recharge the most recent rune used (in the event you didnât have a depleted rune)
I went and tested it for about 5 minutes, after taking a fully depleted rune, it goes in order. So the one with the shortest CD actually gets taken. Which is why it sucks that RE takes the rune with 1 seconds left as opposed to either of the other 2 that has 2-3 seconds left.
Yup! Thatâs exactly what I mean by âmost depleted runeâ or in Kellisteâs term âthe rune with the highest CDâ. Both are equivalent either way.
The normal statement results in you getting 3 runes back one global earlier.
NOOOO! You were SOOO CLOSE, man! 
Anyway, I do have a weakaura that proves my statement to be true. If interested, let me know. Personally, if I already procced RE once with 4 runes depleted, I wouldnât use RP during that time period.
16 RP, means you have a 32% chance to get a rune from RE for each tick from BoS. Not counting runes from initial and final cost.
The only two people who didnt understand my post was you and the druid
Your comparison was poor and still had nothing to do with the point of this post. Its not just about the random on chance proc during pillar, its also about having to kite players, being kited by players, or having to do a mechanic during a fight that would still allow you to build killing machine procs while youre off target, so when you get back to the target you have damage to still spend
im insulting you because youre a monkey lmao and cant grasp simple concepts like this and will spend hours everyday on many different forums writing ignorant paragraphs to argue with people. Im convinced you dont actually care about the game or even death knight as a class and just like to troll
I know stats are inflated, ive said it like 50 times now. They are valuable even more so with the 4pc, but that does not mean that the change needs to be made when its not even that often with the 4pc. It happens even less with 2h weapons due to its swing timer.
And yeah, I dont care about 2h at all. Its a band aided weapon choice that limits choices because a few people on the forums dont want DW to have any damage with Obliterate.
The comparison is actually good if you understand why I compared them which I explained fully. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to be confused as to why I made that comparison. It was made because you dont stop things and try to âfixâ something that happens so rarely that it doesnt actually impact much of anything about the spec and if anything it would help DW even more due to more frequent attacks. DW does have more KM procs, and this would just give DW even more uses, even more resources and just push 2h further behind once the 4pc goes away as does the borrowed power.
It doesnt⊠its called an agreement. Surprise when people say something that is correct I do agree with them, im not just out there making arguments and trolling like people want to suggest. Dont let these toxic people cloud your view of things.
Why would you spend RP if you have 5 runes sitting? If you are about to overcap on RP if you spend those runes? Thats just wasted potential at refunded runes.
Im talking about BoS without the set bonus as well. Obliteration simmed higher for me than BoS did in ST before any set bonus was active.
BoS I think is detrimental to fun, or at the very least its detrimental to my fun. It feels like you slow down, and I dont like that. I like faster paced gameplay which the DK absolutely used to have but thats another conversation.
I dont even the suggestion, it was more of just saying RE can proc on something it has no business proccing on. Just because it can happen, doesnt mean it needs fixing. It absolutely would waste a good portion of an RE proc, but no one gives a damn if that happens⊠why? Because it doesnt actually matter in the long run.
Just like KM stacking to 2 would only help in a very limited capacity and would probably impact DW a lot more than anything else. DW Obliteration mainly. Looking through Halondrus, DW gets more procs flat out. Ive seen as little as 10 more procs to as much as 40 more procs just basing it off of Glacial advanced hits on a single target. Even though 2h hits harder than DW with Obliterate, this increase in KM procs for DW evens it out or even sometimes pushes it ahead in terms of overall Obliterate damage. So when DW gets I think it was like 94-96 hits of GA and 2h gets like 60 at best on that fight (the fight is just a bad fight for Frost in the first place) it plays a lot into what is going on between the weapons. How many double procs did DW have in that time? Just say its 10%, thats still 9 procs vs 5-6.
They arent great logs either, but if they are on pretty equal footing its ok to compare them.
You said this the first time, and my response to that is still valid. Did they understand you, or did they just agree that KM should stack to 2? You can agree with the outcome and not actually understand what you were actually trying to say. There is a difference between rotationally which to me talks about the overall rotation and priority list throughout the fight and what is going on within a 12 second window. Talking about fishing for KM also throws this off because you dont fish for procs with Frost Strike or Howling Blast within that window or out of it. You force them, when you fish for something you are not forcing it to happen. Like in WoD where you would force Death and Frost runes to refill as DW by only using 1 Unholy rune, you arent fishing for anything, you are forcing those runes to come back. This was when you could only refill a fully depleted rune and would force the fully depleted Death and Frost runes to come back up.
If im a monkey⊠what does that make you that cant actually write out what the hell you mean? The very fact that I asked if you meant within an Obliteration window shows that im not actually dumb like you are suggesting. If I âdidnt play the specâ how would I know to even ask that question? Lucky guess? Or is it that I actually know stuff and you are pissy because someone you say that doesnt play the game has game knowledge and want to try to kick them down a few pegs?
Many different forums? Nope im only on the Blizzard forums. If you see anyone else on any forums with the name Kelliste, they arent me.
And what is this assumption based on exactly? Lets see⊠saying that there shouldnt be a split in the spec based on the weapon you choose⊠no that couldnt be it thats actually for consistency in the spec. How about the suggestions of trying to normalize KM procs for the weapons through it being based off of Frost Fever⊠nope that couldnt be it either because again thats for creating consistency with the spec. OH! I know it must be suggesting Rune Strike to be the rune spender of Frost and having Obliterate be free of cost but only used when you get a KM proc so that you can independently tune things and people can stop complaining about the low end of Obliterate⊠oh shoot it cant be that either because thats actually trying to fix a complaint that people have had since pre-patch.
Or is this just based on me not thinking that KM stacking to 2 is a âneedâ because it doesnt actually help the spec function or work. QoL changes arent typically functionality changes. They are just to somewhat help the enjoyment of something. Having a steering wheel in a car is a need for functionality, having air conditioning is just a QoL thing that makes driving a little more enjoyable. Do you see the difference.
Now all of this could have been avoided if you would have said âwithin the Obliteration windowâ to answer my question. It furthers any conversation instead of what you did. Learn to communicate better.
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That would be sound⊠if RP is more valued than Runes. 9 times out of 10, Runes are more valuable than RP and I donât think itâs worth a global to spend a RP just to restore your only recharging rune.
RE is at the most value when you restore a depleted rune that isnât naturally recharging.
I would definitely spend runes EVEN when RP is capped if you have 5 runes sitting. Besides, the scenario of being flooded by Runes and RP is a very rare circumstance that normally isnât supposed to happenâŠ
If you asked me im fine with homogenizing duel wield and 2h to be the same. the effect should be just one entire passive that gives both specs the same exact thing and you should be able to double runeforge baseline for 2h.
There should be no difference between the two at all the spec should function the exact same, Change killing machine entirely rework some of the weirder aspects of the spec to function better and be more synergistic, and give us real talent choices that arent super dead and untouched for years
But if not all that then just add 2stack killing machine for multiple reasons
2 Likes
Shut up you rat. Go do world quests, since thatâs all the content you do.
1 Like