Something to keep in mind is that as far back as WoD, Yrel’s official site character page spoke of her harboring some dark secret, which Velen sensed. He foresaw that for good or ill she would play a large role in future events. It’s easy to just assume that began and ended with the events of WoD, but that wasn’t necessarily the case. When something says “for good or ill,” the supposition is that at some point, the “ill” will come into play, either as the worse culmination of things or as a hazard to overcome along the way.
So it could very well turn out that rather than just “Light fanaticism bad,” Yrel’s actions as High Exarch might involve that dark secret. It could even be her finding out something sinister she didn’t know about herself, and it driving her to desperately overcompensate in her faith, all the while being goaded on by a Light Mother who finds such zeal extremely useful for building up the Army of the Light. Who maybe even told her the thing she didn’t know to garner that response.
As soon as someone acting “for the Light” is described as having a “dark secret,” that secret creates cracks in the foundation of what they’re doing always being about the Light. It makes everything suspect. Suddenly a zealot slinging the Light “because the Light says so” becomes a zealot slinging the Light “because something says so, but is it really the Light? And if it is, are they really listening, or just hearing what they want or need to hear? Or hearing it the way someone else wants or needs them to hear it?”
Yrel, Void Adept? Hurray, good Emptiness, true to the path of Light!
Is the player present when Yrel’s sister is killed? Or any trustworthy character? So that it does not happen that Yrel herself killed her sister.
You deliver again with some interesting theorycrafting . That would be an interesting twist. I did wonder about Yrel’s “dark secret” that was alluded to, but assumed it was part of the content that was cut because of how rushed WoD was. I also thought her “for good or ill” bit from Velen might have been her going on a vengeful rampage after Samaara - her sister - was killed. What did you think the “dark secret” was back in WoD?
I think there’s a gap between “dark secret” and “future tyrannical conqueror”, but I never considered an idea like yours. I like it. My theories about the dark secret were admittedly a bit cliché’ and corny lol, like “Yrel is Garona’s mother in the AU”, or “she’s the literal daughter of Kil’jaeden”.
Yrel’s story might pan out to be your idea, it might be “Scarlet Crusade 2: Electric Boogaloo”, it’s up in the air but your theory is interesting. It does raise the question, are naaru self-aware when they turn Void? Are naaru turned to the Void, not Void Gods but Void infused naaru, capable of intelligent thought? They’re usually portrayed as an out of control force of destruction in that form.
The player witnesses the death of Yrel’s sister. She’s sacrificed by Ner’zhul in a ritual to make a naaru Void-infused and weaponize it for the Iron Horde.
Yes, but it’s questionable. The only answer we have is through Cdev panels and Legion. The Cdev panel said that Naaru have a Light and Void cycle.
Contradictory Legion story around Alleria becoming possessed says that Naaru can only become darkened after being touched by some kind of trauma, only going into a Void state if the trauma is too extreeme, this is usually accompanied by being too close to a mortal. It would seem that turning Void is not a natural process of a Naaru but we have lore from Oshu’gun and the Pale which contradict that lore which they got straight from K’ure.
Ku’re is described as becoming in a Void state because it was injured and Light began to bleed from it. Possibly suggesting that Naaru have a Life and Death cycle that is outside of our Life and Death Cycle in which beings are reborn in the Light and over time and injury bleed the Light until they become full Void beings, only then to be reborn in the Light. There’s also suggestions that Naaru can be changed fundimentally by being exposed to too much of a single power such as what happened to Z’rali.
In the same Cdev Q&A they also hinted Elune might be a Naaru but not sure at this point if that’s still the direction they are going with or if Elune is going to be something entirely different. They may keep these overall themes and try to apply those themes to all cosmic beings who are outside the mortal cycle of Life and Death.
The best reason not to have a light expansion is because it would be boring. We’ve kind of had a taste of the thematics with the kyrian of bastion and I’ve already had my fill of their self righteous shouting nonsense jingles across the battlefield . Worse than a bunch of shoutie orks. And for heaven sake leave au Yrei and Xera in their au dimension. They are boring. If we must have a light expansion let it be home grown with a valid story progression. A beginning, middle and end. And no more gas lighting, or narrative fibs to push a particular story line.
Yes let’s have someone with Charisma and personality like the Primus, Bwomsamdi, Denathrius, Gul’dan and Azshara be running Zones in the Light Expansion not the usual Self Righteous characters one would expect!
The Naaru should not be part of the Covenants of the Pantheon of Light but intruders sent by Elune to infiltrate it in the same way the Nathrezim infiltrated the Legion.
Feel free to have the Covenants of the Light mock the Naaru’s Self Righteous attitude which will be revealed to be based on the Archon’s personality as a prank by Elune.
One Zone can be Crystal Spires while the others have a Bright theme that doesn’t delve into Self Righteousness. Feel free to have a Grand Castle Zone ruled by a Card Carrying Charismatic Megalomaniac who boasts about how we will see the Light of Evil!
I must admit, I kinda of skip over the time jump they put there. Adding time travel to multiverse swapping is just such a horribly messy thing to try for.
I suppose we should all be thankful they have NOT tried to claim some kind of time travel turns into singularity arc.
Be careful jumping to who knew what about what in the AU. Since we only have a small view of the AU timeline it’s hard to say where its overall status is.
IIRC that timeline has no Orc invasion of Azeroth. We don’t actually know what’s going on with Azeroth at all there.
As far as Lightbound, right now I would expect to find they’re linking that to AU Domination concepts, so not something MU Naaru would do normally.
That is a possibility. Chronicle sets it as a thing, kind of under what we’d now call the Life Pantheon… But perspective.
There is certainly room for Spirit to be more than it has been seen as so far.
It could also be an explicitly mortal realm manifestation of both Light and Shadow in balance. A product of the harmony of the universe, and from thence a source of mortal life, not one, or the other, but both at once.
I don’t know that I would go to Holy Light just being Void with the data at hand.
Umm…
In Heroes of the Storm Yrel jokes that her “dark secret” is that she sees dead people.
We’re in the Shadowlands in MU now… Uhh…
I’m going to take this opportunity to point out that making an in-universe afterlife, and positing a multiverse, is one really good way to cause a headache.
See, they wouldn’t know in the AU explicitly because at that time, the Legion hadn’t been defeated yet. When the naaru showed up and turned the AU draenei against the rest of AU Draenor, it was literally contemporaneous with the Burning Legion still being at full strength on Argus within the Twisting Nether, and therefore within the Great Dark in every reality.
It’s part and parcel of there only being one Burning Legion, and more importantly only one Twisting Nether that connects all realities. While the relative passage of time experienced by beings while within the Nether itself is strange and unpredictable, the realm itself is still subject as a whole to Time’s fixed “forward” direction of motion, meaning once something happens there, it’s happened from that point forward. And since the Nether is shared by all realities, that means such an event is singular in relation to them all. As soon as we defeated the Burning Legion on Argus, the effects that would have on the Legion in every existent universe would occur at once, because it’s all the same Legion. Our victory on Argus was in that regard a multiversal event, with its effects rippling across every other reality from that moment as the Legion in every reality was struck by the consequences of losing Sargeras, Kil’jaeden, the rest of their upper command structure and the regeneration mechanism in Antorus.
Meaning in any and all realities, the Burning Legion was not beaten on Argus until we beat it, and from that point forward it was beaten in all of them. So as far as AU Draenor was concerned, the Legion’s defeat at our hands occurred at the same time that it occurred from our perspective. Namely, sortly before the events of BfA, i.e after the war between Lightbound and Mag’har had already been going on for several years.
Moreover they’d not have been able to foresee the Legion’s defeat in that other universe, because Garrosh’s intrusion upon AU Draenor’s destined course of events basically broke everyone’s prophetic barometer in that universe, causing their reality’s fate to become unreadable due to external agencies that weren’t subject to its native flow of events altering things, starting with Garrosh’s shenanigans and compounding with every new intrusion from our reality thereafter.
Xe’ra, as seen in Alleria’s vision of a universe consumed by Light and devoid of life as we know it, is indeed aiming to destroy the universe just like the Void Lords and Old Gods. MU Xe’ra is dead after trying to forcibly transmogrify people, and AU Xera’s engaging in a lot genocide on Draenor. Both need(ed) to be stopped.
Neither will a “Light Crusade” expansion be the end of WoW.
The Scarlets were not entirely wiped out. Some joined the Scarlet Onslaught, an even more extremist faction of the Crusade, only to defect. The Brotherhood are Scarlets working to rebuild the order. And the Crimson Pilgrims, despite being unconfirmed, are walking around in Scarlet regalia.
Also, the cut quest simply provides greater context for the pamphlets- but does nothing to invalidate the fact that Scarlets are indeed actively distributing propaganda and trying to make a come back.
Yes, many members of the Scarlet Crusade did work with their historical enemies to fight off the Legion. Many members of the Crusade went to join the even more radical Scarlet Onslaught back in Wrath of the Lich King. Around the same time the remaining Crusaders “wiped out” following an assault by Death Knights, many in the Onslaught went back and joined the Conclave in its fight against the Legion during the events of Legion.
Indeed, Blizzard can change anything in the future, but they haven’t changed the fact that the void phase is a natural part of the naaru life cycle.
I didn’t cherry pick anything. I linked the threads in their entirety. People can see that the singular linked thread in which you posted the your “last comment” didn’t actually address any of the arguments before you- leaving those discussions unresolved. You just abandoned your arguments and made a new thread with the same incorrect assertions. And then did it again. And again.
Yeah, you tried to discredit me and other who disagree with you by describing them as having some kind of vendetta and implying they’re sock puppet accounts- even though comparing our armories and post histories clearly shows we aren’t.
I’m not rude to you or out to get you.
You just keep making the same threads with the same bad arguments and lots of different people can point out how you’re wrong for the same reasons.
Nice try with Locus-Walker, @Tammy, but no. Locus-Walker is a mortal entity who was altered by the Void like Alleria but to a greater level. He didn’t originate from the Void like Mythrax or the Mantid did; THOSE are Void entities. Locus-Walker is no more a Void entity than Captain Fareeya of the Lightforged Draenei is a Light entity.
That vision of Alleria’s was a lie, Locus-Walker and Alleria figured that out while studying the Void (bold added for emphasis);
"She saw war. She saw the forces of the Light striking back against the Void. She saw darkened worlds burning in holy fire. She saw millions of creatures encased in luminous crystals the size of mountains, sustained by the Light and unable to die. Warriors of the Light were monsters, corrupting and consuming everything they touched.
On and on and on it went, until she could not even comprehend it all. "Lies," she whispered. “These are all lies.” “Sear that into your heart,” the Locus-Walker said. "Know that, and never forget it."
“Destiny. (Alleria) saw what the Light could not. She saw what even the Shadow could not, because, yes, it was just as blind.”
She saw terrible choices. She saw noble betrayals. She saw… victory, in a way she could scarcely comprehend.
And among all of that, she saw countless events that would never happen. The lies of the Void were strong, intoxicating, but they quickly collapsed.
A Thousand Years of War, page 37. You’ll twist anything as long as it discredits the Light, it seems.
I never considered a “Light Crusade” expansion the end of WoW, just a very bad idea that’s probably go over as well as WoD or Shadowlands. The Crimson Pilgrims and Scarlet Brotherhood aren’t confirmed to be actual Scarlet Crusade members. How did the Scarlet Crusade work with their historical enemies? The offshoot? Perhaps, though I’m not sure they were enemies, if they were you have a point there. The only members of the Scarlet Onslaught who fought the Legion were the defectors who left the Scarlet Onslaught and joined Netherlight Temple.
You’re cherry-picking right now. You’re not replying to everything in my comments, just carefully selected sentences. That’s a trait Cursewords shares, and while I no longer consider you a sockpuppet or vice versa, I had good reasons to be suspicious.
Several people agree with me, some claim I’m wrong, we exchange arguments and counterarguments. A few of those who thought I was wrong slink away until the topic comes up again and pretend they refuted me when it was either the other way around or their counterargument was dismantled and the discussion ended there.
Yeah that was a corny theory of mine. I’m sure there’s a fanfic with that idea somewhere.
I really can’t find a good story coherence that’s acceptable to me in their assertions about how timelines and multiverses work.
The Burning Legion, part of the Disorder Pantheon, being outside the confines of the universe, able to traverse between the multiverse; when the other Pantheons appear limited makes no sense. By definition, taking the Naaru as limited and not knowing, creates a very strange story position where, frankly, the Burning Legion already won…
If the Burning Legion has already transcended time and space this is all meaningless. Further, having them move between multiverses breaks the physics harmony of the universe they left, and the one they entered; there’s also no way to prevent their meeting their anti-selves and ending all existence with Hawking’s handshake (if you meet your anti-self, don’t shake your own hand).
It all ends up feeling horribly contrived since the primal, external powers are True Light and Shadow. (It was, they wanted to do a certain story view, they did. They need to stop trying to make excuses for why “it really works”.
To make the Twisting Nether work as alleged we need to formulate it like an event horizon. Doing that makes it a boundary around the physical universe, making The Great Dark more like a pocket universe, or singularity. Once that’s where we are the event horizon of The Twisting Nether will have a really nasty habit of making spaghetti of things passing through it. It just doesn’t make sense for it (The Twisting Nether) to actually be habitable except in its edges on each “side” abutting a multiverse, where the technical outlines of each multiverse’s time/space are still tenuously operable, which would separate the different multiverse’s Burning Legion from each other and not allow for a single one.
Following the event horizon view, the ability of demons to return to it will be hampered by the distance to the edge of the universe when they die, which the cosmology already said was “infinite” (ugh). Otherwise we are discarding time and space, which we would also need to do to make the Twisting Nether allow for a single Burning Legion.
The Burning Legion really needs to be limited inside each of the multiverses or we end up with a crisis problem of life existing outside the clash of Light and Shadow making the universe. Once mortal realm life exists without the universe, we’re stuck in a mush of nothingness. At that point we need an ordering God beyond all the existing powers, or we need The Dreamer. (We just need something beyond all things to source all things from. Otherwise the drain of matter from the multiverses caused by the Legion becoming a single entity should destroy the balance of the multiverses and cause a big-bang event.)
An ordering God who has never expressed themselves would be insanity. The Almighty as “father who abandons children” would be a bold, I guess, but entirely junk, story arc.
The Dreamer, to whom dreams merge and flow without reality and boundary, makes far more sense. But doing that would be an extremely damaging story choice itself as choice is reduced to nothingness with the existing story. It would also destroy the dream-becomes-reality concept working in this story as reality was not a thing, just the dis-reality of the dreams of The Dreamer. Logically in the current arc, when The Dreamer awakens, “reality” will cease to exist, all the stories and our characters along with it; they won’t awaken like Pygmalion because there would be an actual reality for Azeroth to awaken into with real physics that won’t allow the dreamed dis-reality to exist.
Note: You could try and form The Twisting Nether as a central universal singularity which all universes spin around. Technically, in that singularity time would have no meaning. But the singularity would be literally eating the multiverses over time and cause their “time” to be moving towards, in appearance, the singularity. The curvature of them orbiting it might cause the appearance of the singularity being at the boundaries of the universe total, but it would be more an interpretational problem of time bending with acceleration at the outer limits of the multiverses’ movement.
That would technically explain the acceleration of time as you approach The Twisting Nether, and then are in its edges, but would make WoW an entirely fatalistic universe with no future, and taken to its extremes would probably destroy the concept of Light and Shadow at the beginning of all things.
It would also mean the conversion and hyper-compression of all matter that passes through the event horizon (spaghetti); the Legion could not exist in The Twisting Nether.
Adding any power with the extremis ability to cheat physics at the limits of a universe requires adding an external impetus beyond the multiverses total. By definition, the minute you’ve done that you’re talking about The God, not a fallible thing making momentary decisions mortals can actually reject.
It would logically cause the Legion to have at its disposal infinite energy and velocity at their whim.
That’s crazy talk when we’ve supposedly beaten them with people using swords and shields.
(And… I don’t want to even go there with Danuser’s souls as a rope thing.)
See, something easy to overlook is that while WarCraft is multiversal, it’s not equally multiversal. IRL theories of multiverse and the like attribute no unique significance to “our” universe over any other, but that’s not the case in WarCraft. What we would call the main or “Prime” WarCraft universe isn’t just another arbitrary branch of events no more or less likely or valid than another; within the concept of WarCraft it’s the true course of events.
In WC only one universe, as a product of the one true timeline, actually has permanence and cosmically “matters.” Any manifest importance to the others only comes from something in that Prime universe roping some aspect of them into its own reality, i.e. the actions of Kairoz, Garrosh and even the players anchoring AU Draenor’s course of events to our own. So the Legion being able to "access’ them all is meaningless, because nothing it does to any of them affects the one and only reality that truly “is.” End a world in the Prime universe, and that world ceases to be from that point forward in all subsequently produced possible realities, while all prior ones rapidly fade and disappear as the continued existence of that world still being in them divorces their existence ever further from the stability of the Prime universe’s post-facto certainty.
By definition, in WC alternate realities are in effect merely tangible possibilities that, from the moment they split off from the main one, begin existentially falling apart faster and faster as those initial deviations snowball to create even more differences and cause them to become farther and farther removed from the true course of events.
In short, there’s only one Twisting Nether, there’s only one Shadowlands, only one realm of Light, only one Void, etc. Only the realm between them all - ours, sometimes called the Great Dark - produces alternate versions of itself because it’s fundamentally and strictly governed by Time, and the natural passage of Time determines what happens and what doesn’t. The true timeline and the universe it encapsulates is, in and of itself, “what happened.” All of the other versions, born of deviations both large and small that spun them off via false timelines, encapsulate “what didn’t happen.”
So the Legion didn’t already win because it doesn’t matter if in some false reality it “hypothetically” managed to conquer Azeroth, as that reality is a manifestation of false events that didn’t actually occur, meaning everything that exists and every event that took place in it is doomed to cease existing, because they never truly “were” and never truly “happened” at all.
Keep in mind that Time is an aspect of the Cosmic Power of Order. It actually makes a degree of sense that the polar opposite cosmic power, Disorder, is unfettered by the constraints of time. It’s why the passage of time in the Shadowlands is somewhat dubious, because they’re not a part of the realm of Order.
Actually, a main (or even single) universe is a posited concept for some purposes. Such a model also doesn’t satisfy me in WoW.
Time bubbles from a singular timeline are going to run into input/output/duration barriers, especially as viewed from the timeline.
To make it short: They take a lot of energy to occur. They last for a very short time. Their energy and matter must return to the main universe.
To fit the posit of infinite events we’d have to entirely discard the very concept of an AU for a more complex (though existing) idea of there only being a single timeline universe where all events occur as a function of the universe existing/aging. (I’m facially discounting infinite bubbles as the increasing age of the universe would require positing infinite energy and matter input from somewhere. That would entirely moot the idea of a fight between Pantheons as universal growth would part them so much they would lose the ability to fight over the universe due to its sheer scale as it ages.)
The problem with a true course system in WoW comes from it entirely binding all things to a preset series of events. There is no choice or individuality. Truthfully, it makes a joke of having a soul as there is no purpose to it. It removes the purpose from time, and the Bronze Dragonflight, as it predestinates all things.
Doing that entirely removes good and bad. There isn’t even the ability to argue shades of grey. As all things inexorably move towards their allotted ends, even the alternate timelines are meaningless to worry about, they’ll simply magically melt into the one end.
To put that into perspective: It makes the players talking about genocide entirely wrong. There could be no other path, therefore there was no good or bad to be found. Only the compelled occurrence the natural course of the universe followed. It makes everything pointless action existing merely as the mechanical interaction of the universe moving along. It defeats the concept of justice… it makes it all a lie.
It is an ultimate but the plot formulation, I give it that. But to try and rationalize it with some sense still requires what I already brought up in the form of something to source all things from. (They may be trying to do that with the First Ones, but even they are subject to time, a Sepulcher is not needed if there isn’t time, more below on time.)
Now, this:
And this:
Conflict with this:
To do that you must put the Twisting Nether inside time, you end up with the realms of every Pantheon inside time. They can not be at once limited by time and outside time. Elevate them that way and they’re now equal to primordial Light and Shadow, which shatters the entire origin myth.
(We also need to flow in and out of multiverse formulations, granting, and then denying them as we change reasoning to one true path/one true universe.)
They alleged that, they also broke that at this point.
Taking the Nether: You can’t have a “different” flow of time…without time.
Taking the Shadowlands: Same as above, and: You can’t have Fate without time. The Strands of Fate are literally nothingness without time.
Order/Disorder needs time on both sides, lacking it on either side reduces it to meaninglessness.
Switching to the Void even, remove time and Prophecy (whispers) ceases to have meaning, it’s a fundamentally time based thing.
A magic which has some power over time, is a workable concept, but time itself cannot be the Pantheon of Order’s product now. If there were no time, how can there have been an interaction between Light and Shadow to begin the universe. Lacking time there cannot be a separation between the Pantheons; they cannot occupy different realms, that requires space and time.
(If we go with a big-bang posit, which seems intended, then you can lack time before the event, but time begins with the event or there is no event, so all the things coming from the event must be in time. Thus all the Pantheons and their powers are somehow in time, though, with relativity, their seeing time differently is a workable thing. That has an interesting potential if a “true” version of the cosmology asserted a distending universe from inception, where the Pantheon “seats” are actually closer to the beginning, where time is faster. Then as the age progresses they bleed into the universe proper as they are merged into “real” matter, which eventually will consume them all… It would make their mortality as the inevitable progress of matter marches on a major plot point. But it would also develop to the transcendence of the mortals. In short: Light and Shadow create gods from their clash. Hi2U Nephalem!)
We’ve been written into a very strange spot because someone didn’t know Tolkein’s mountain in the distance idea.
What if Time in this fictional universe is not connected to space, but rather, to perception? Because people like Alleria and Turalyon live within the confines of the concept of Time, their experience in the Nether is of a distorted time? In effect, being a product of all six cosmic forces means they exert the influence of those forces wherever they go? So to be within the Twisting Nether is to subject it to Time by their perception?
I’m not sure I’m explaining it all that well, but I hope you understand what I mean.
If the Nether is water, and Time from Order is a container of koolaid mix, adding some scoops (individuals) to the Nether doesn’t suddenly make it Koolaid mix. It becomes a combination of the two until such time as those scoops are removed.
If you don’t count creatures/non-sentient stuff shaped by Void energies as Void entities, then you can’t include Mythrax and Mantid, as they too are results of the Old Gods imparting their Void influence on Azeroth/Titan creations, much like the combination of Void and non-living matter that created Gnomes, Dwarves, Vrykul and Humans.
Because the Void does not create stuff. It alters and changes it.
So either we include entities that result from that, which includes the Locus Walker and Mantid and Humans, or indeed, you’re restricting your example soley to stuff pretty much only of the void: i.e. the Old Gods. And since we’ve only ever seen 4 Old Gods and know even less about the Void Lords, you’re working from an extremely specific and small reference pool.
You omitted a whole paragraph, which exists between the snippets you quoted which states that the idea of the Light OR the Void as being all good/bad is not true (bold added for emphasis)…
"The Locus-Walker kept her firmly afloat. "You have known the Shadow as nothing but horrors. The Shadow sees the Light in the same way. Neither viewpoint is true. Neither is wrong." The roar of the Void nearly drowned him out. The masters of the Void were clawing at her mind. She barely fought them off. “The Light seeks one path and shuns all others as lies. The Shadow seeks every possible path and sees them all as truth.”
For anyone who wants to read it for themselves: https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/U5IQKY6K35271505861653212.pdf
I’m not trying to discrediting the Light. I’m actually discrediting your incorrect assertion that the Light is without flaw and is the sole beneficial force in the Warcraft universe.
Yeah, I too found it curious that’d you bring up how the lack of such an expansion wouldn’t be the end of WoW when absolutely nodbody made that claim before.
In either case, a “Light Crusade” expansion is a good idea that could go over even better than WoD or Shadowlands.
They’re all still Scarlets, though. They are former members of the Crusade and its associated groups. They wear the armor of Scarlet groups. When we see them expressing convictions, they’e in line with the Scarlet groups. Many of them helped the Conclave in Legion and continue to distribute propaganda.
In short, the Scarlets aren’t gone.
I’m not cherry picking. I’m quoting your entire post in its entirey and responding to every single point you raise. You’re the one cherry picking, as shown above with your selective quoting of A Thousand Years of War.
People don’t “slink away” from your threads. You just like eventually stop replying to corrections before turning around and eventually creating totally new thread wherein you make the exact same arguments about how the Light is all good, try to deny/downplay/excuse anything bad related to it and disparage characters in the narrative that oppose the Light/naaru. And people show up to disagree with you there all over again.
I do count Mythrax and the mantid, who are different from Locus-Walker because the Old Gods made them, so that’s a strawman from you. Saying, for example, that an Old God created Locus-Walker is like saying a Naaru created Turalyon.
I was focusing on refuting your dismissal of the Light and your blind devotion to the Void. Also, I deliberately shared the quote from the story that the Light isn’t all knowing, so you’re outed again for attacking a strawman by pretending my argument considered the Light flawless. Name these so-called Scarlets who worked for the Conclave in Netherlight Temple. I said it wouldn’t be the end of WoW in an attempted peace offering at Cursewords because I thought they were arguing for “Light Crusade” for fear that there would be no more WoW story if they didn’t go that direction.
I never tried to downplay the Scarlet Crusade, and on at least one thread criticzing Yrel’s villain-batting the last comment on the thread as of typing this is mine.
You cherry-picked my previous comments, I think you only changed your approach to try and make me wrong. Why do you only answer parts of my comments instead of the whole comment in your previous replies?
Some people do slink away, like Renastus and Cursewords prior to this comment (the fact that they returned to upvote your comment but haven’t commented further is part of why I call them my hate brigade).
You call people your “hate brigade” when they don’t comment? For simply liking a post and not commenting? Call me what you will. Name calling is all you can do. You are wrong when you try to discuss lore.
I mentioned before that I would digress, and let you chat with others. Maybe now you learned that people other than me will point out you are wrong. It isn’t just me with sock puppets.
I - and others - proved you were incorrect for stating there were sore feelings amongst the Draenei Blizzard needed to address. And your delusional suspicions that me and Tammy were the same person were also wrought from your insanity.
I mean, if I don’t comment on your head canon ravings that fly in the face of lore… you call me part of your hate brigade. Or you imagine I am using other posters as my “sock puppets”. If I do comment, you simply use debate team jargon to name call.
If I remember correctly, the alternate timelines branch off from the main timeline. It is possible to have choice and individuality with preset events. It requires knowing the future and preordaining the events based on people’s future choices.
The question becomes are things in WoW pre-ordained or random in-universe. While some like Sylvanas claim that things are pre-ordained and as such there is no free will, the question is how could she determine whether or not that’s true. In Sylvanas’ case, she comes from the position of “I didn’t get the afterlife I want, therefore the cosmos is unfair”. She’s speaking from a position of self-centeredness and trauma. As for the First Ones, they’re a plot device introduced in Shadowlands, and we don’t know what their motives are or if they’re even still around.
The Twisting Nether seems to be a dimension that transcends space and time, as the demons have multiple bodies in multiple dimensions but are the same person (which is how Archimonde appeared in WoD despite his body being vaporized during the Third War, as lore states it takes a long time for a demon to regenerate their body in the Twisiting Nether and the lore doesn’t state whether Sargeras fast-tracked his regeneration).
I don’t know whether the other dimensions are connected. Otherwise, would there be multiples of souls in the Shadowlands as alternate universe counterparts types. I think this is a case of “the writers are clueless about it and the fans put more thought into this than them”. Apart from the immortality and multiple bodies nature of demons, I don’t know how the Twisting Nether interacts with the timelines.
Tolkien did extensive research into the themes and elements of his story and portrayed multiple aspects. He even worked in ideas he changed and things he wasn’t sure about as in-universe discrepancies between characters and cultures, but there was still a rock-solid canon.
You predictably returning now doesn’t change the fact that you’d left before I posted that last comment and hadn’t responded to it, Cursewords. I refuted your arguments using in-game sources and you pretend it never happened. Stating the logical fallacies you keep committing isn’t mere jargon; if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck…
I call you and a few others my hate brigade because of your shared rudeness towards me, repeatedly trying to twist my words and repeated attempts to gang up on me and vote-brigade against my case.
. That would be an interesting twist. I did wonder about Yrel’s “dark secret” that was alluded to, but assumed it was part of the content that was cut because of how rushed WoD was. I also thought her “for good or ill” bit from Velen might have been her going on a vengeful rampage after Samaara - her sister - was killed. What did you think the “dark secret” was back in WoD?