You’re still more likely to get gear from raids than from the daily emissary.
Maybe for Horde, but I’m definitely not seeing that amount on Alliance.
Warfronts take weeks to reset and the weekly quest is not always gear.
Because it’s not 3-5 pieces, that’s overly optimistic and relies on a lot of luck and chance to even happen.
Being OK with it because it’s rare does not mean I would be OK with it being limited. It’s not even remotely close and shows just how disingenuous your arguments are. I also never said it was a “huge necessity”. That’s something else you’ve made up so you can keep arguing.
You keep speaking on it like it is though. What’s wrong with actual progression and having anticipation leading up to making your personal goals? Why did we have to trade out progression for a slot machine?
You ask for proof when you can’t provide any yourself that the opposite is true. The game didn’t need it to be successful before and it sure as hell doesn’t need it now.
Lol? You serious? 3 pieces of loot from caches each week is “overly optimistic”? Horde had at least 3 this week already. (Mythic cache, weekly, emissary). 3 caches is an average week.
Based on what? Gear emissaries come up about 3 times a week, maybe 2 at minimum. Raid only has 9 bosses and has a weekly lockout. Of course if you do both you’ll maximize your chances at getting an upgrade, but I’d argue that only doing one or the other has about equal chances of getting gear…which is absurd when you consider the difficulty and coordination that one requires compared to the other.
The complaints of Warforging and Titanforging are pretty straight-forward. The concept of a lower quality piece of gear, having a chance of artificially inflating it’s own value off of chance, devaluing and undermining the players who actually worked for a piece of equivalent gear. I casually Mythic raided in Legion, and do you know what sucks? Working so hard for a piece of gear, only to have another player who put in a fraction of the effort, have a similar if not superior piece of gear. There’s nothing fun or interesting in having a best-in-slot piece of gear get handed to someone who doesn’t put in the same work as another player who doesn’t put in the same effort, and more disturbing than that – it being in LFR. My mage I’m working on becoming my main just got a 420 Titanforged BIS trinket from the Timewalking Cache weekly. A fresh 120 for not even a day, and this isn’t a problem?
Now – to clarify, I don’t have any issues with any players playing the game the way they choose, if they wish to play casually, then power to them, if they want to grind towards Cutting Edge or Hall of Fame, Gladiator, Rank 1, power to them. I have an issue with the game handling loot. To me, it’s a slap in the face to put in 10-15 hours a week, to kill Mythic content, just to have another player get lucky, and possibly get a better piece of loot than I did. Am I jealous? No. Do I have a problem with the player? No. Am I frustrated with Blizzard’s design choices? Yes.
My old guild in Legion could clear Tomb of Sargeras, and Antorus on Heroic within a single night. Our best run of Heroic Tomb was 56 minutes from start to finish, and some of the players (myself included) got Titanforged gear better than our Mythic gear. 56 minutes to wash away hours and weeks of effort. This is a problem.
Actual progression still exists though. You just like to gloss over that part so you can keep arguing.
You made the claim, you back it up. There’s a lot of things the game didn’t “need” to be successful, like Human Hunters.
Weekly doesn’t always give loot, so you’re looking at 2 on average. And emissary still relies on luck.
I’m guessing Horde is seeing more emissary gear rewards than Alliance, because I definitely have not seen 2 minimum gear rewards from them. Meanwhile the raid has 9 chances per difficulty per week. Plus you can bonus roll 3 times a week. So that’s 12 chances at higher level loot compared to more casual players who can expect “3-5” caches a week. I guess 3-5 is somehow better than 12.
It’s not a problem. That fresh 120 has a single piece of very good loot while the person doing more, and more difficult, content, will have many pieces of very good loot. You lot are seriously acting as if the existence of the lottery negates the need to ever have a job.
No no no. Lol. Those are 3-5 GUARANTEED drops. “12 chances” at a ~25% drop rate…(it’s 11 chances, but oh well; and that’s if you full clear…which the majority of players simply won’t do).
Ah yes. A trinket that’s equivalent to and even better than mythic raid trinkets. How awesome is that? 2 minutes to kill a world boss that you can afk during and bam! Mythic loot!!!
Yeah, the gearing system is flawed and it’s broken. It’s unhealthy for the game and raiding scene. It’s unhealthy for the m+ scene as well. Shouldn’t be able to get gear equal to what a +15 or 20 drops just by taking 1 minute or so to do a quest.
Hopefully it gets scaled back eventually. TF doesn’t need to be removed, just adjusted. While we’re at that reforging should make a come back as well to help offset the ridiculous RNG that is gearing now.
Fine with world content providing decent gear to casuals or whomever but it shouldn’t be able to compete with raid gear or mythic+ gear. That’s insane. Gearing isn’t even a huge part of why people raid anymore because it’s so gutted. Got a cool 400 ilvl shield? Well this invasion just gave you a titanforged 400 shield with better stats, so I guess now you’ll use the shield you got from 3 minutes of world content as opposed to progression raiding.
Citation required.
There was no “reduction” to any chances mentioned anywhere through the release of BfA.
The fact that some items can and some items can’t WF/TF is an issue in of itself, it creates disparity between rewards types.
Why would I want azerite rewards for a certain slot if I already have one equal level with decent traits? Wouldn’t I rather have a normal item of the same ilvl with chances of it being a higher reward?
WF/TF is a system that constantly devalues items in various ways. That is the issue with it.
It doesn’t matter what the possibilities are, simply having the chance incentivises it over other gear, and any potential rewards you have already received with forged devalue any potential rewards you may get from that slot in the future.
The issue is that at the start of a raid patch I can, as a casual player, get a large upgrade from a WQ which then becomes a static item as I progress through various forms of content until I finally have a chance at surpassing it when doing M +10 or Mythic raid content.
Something that most casual players will not attain.
It’s like having a random chance for one of your pieces to become an artifact weapon but without the traits. Just a static piece that you don’t even care exists.
But the people who do harder content will virtually always have better gear than people who do easier content. That’s progression.
That’s because you can’t explain it. New things are added all the time. Some are good, some are bad, but you have zero proof that WF/TF is the reason that the game has lost so many subscribers.
This game has always had a slot machine attached to raid bosses. Sure, they had a vendor to ameliorate issues, but the primary method of gearing up was killing a boss and hoping something dropped.
3-5 chances at something that might be useful vs 12 chances at something that might be useful. You’re acting like the emissary reward is always something you need. That the mythic cache will never give you a duplicate item and that the weekly reward will always give you loot.
Citation has already been given further up this thread. Look for the mmo-champion link that I provided earlier.
It is possible, but not guaranteed, and most casual players will not get that upgrade. Also, that upgrade is for a single piece of gear. Casual players are not rocking 400+ titanforged in every slot and you know it so stop confusing the issue.
And you have no proof that the opposite is true. Is it speculation? Of course! I don’t have the numbers. But I feel confident in saying that forging is part of many major flaws that has been going on in BFA and previous expansions as to why people are packing up.
When you give out welfare gear for everyone, people aren’t going to stick around because the game isn’t engaging the player. It’s rewarding them for breathing air. When you create a path for people to follow with reasonable goals that can be achieved through systems like a currency, you get anticipation and buildup to the reward and the payoff feels satisfying.
You have it completely backwards as usual - people were ALREADY redoing existing content (to boost friends/guildies, farm mounts/mogs, target something that only appeared on a boss late in the raid, or even just for kicks.) TF was made to give those folks something to look forward to even from the bosses where they already had equal or better loot for that difficulty.
It’s only the obsessive folks like yourself who long to have the best possible numbers out of all your peers that consider TF to be a requirement rather than a nice-to-have. And frankly, no amount of design can fix a mindset like that.
It doesn’t have to forge much to make gear irrelevant. Even from world content there is only 15 ilvls between emissaries gear and M+10 drops or Heroic raids.
A 10 or 15 upgrade will devalue the next 4 tiers of M+ or the next tier of raid content, as will a socket.
You aren’t seeing the bigger picture. “It’s not a problem” is your only supplying argument to mine. Which further enforces my point. The fresh 120 should not have a single piece of very good loot unless it is earned. You are comparing a video game to the lottery or gambling, which is low effort, high risk, high reward. In this instance, you are comparing it to high effort, low risk, high reward. The only “risk” in Mythic progression is time, which isn’t a risk either - but I digress. You completely blew past my points, and focused on one thing, to try and advance your point, which you have yet to convince me to see your argument, or anyone else to see your point for that matter. My Mage did not earn that 420 ilvl trinket. I got lucky - something in which shouldn’t be a factor in loot tables.
Wrong. The “slot machine” you’re referring to, is a loot table. On the other hand, with a slot machine, your outcomes can have fixed variables with different variables on top of the fixed ones. With older loot tables, there were no slot machines, the only argument that can be made on this is the outcomes, which aren’t variables anyway. The variables were fixed, but no flexible variables integrated into that, and they were based off solely RNG as to what drops, and that much hasn’t changed, the only difference is the gear is directly awarded to you. That isn’t a slot machine. That is RNG. We first went from Tier gear dropping directly from bosses, to tokens that can drop from bosses for multiple classes that can then be turned in to a vendor for the tier gear, back to tier gear dropping directly from bosses, with the slot machine being added for; tertiary stats, gem slots, WF/TF. The slot machine is the additive.
So if people were already going out of their way to redo that content why would they need an incentive? And why would that incentive scale almost infinitely?
I’ve said it before but people always deny it. If WF/TF is to incentive people to do old content that would no longer be relevant, what would be the issues in it capping 5 ilvls above your average ilvl?
You’re still getting the rewards for that content, heck you could increase the chance of acquisition even. Yet every person I’ve suggested that to vehemently rejects that idea.
Clearly a lot of people don’t just see it as a consolation reward for out geared content.