This game has always had a slot machine attached to raid bosses. Sure, they had a vendor to ameliorate issues, but the primary method of gearing up was killing a boss and hoping something dropped.
difference is you knew what you were getting. you didn’t feel bad when you got a weapon and it didnt warforge. you worked toward upgrading gear or saved for an item you could actually see, an item you wanted. not nearly the same thing.
It is 12 chances. Or are you saying that killing a boss will 100% not drop loot? Because you might want to report that bug.
Welcome to 2004. This game has always had a slot machine attached to loot.
If you can’t prove your claim, you don’t get to say a single thing about my claim. I can equally claim that the real reason people are packing up is because of Pathfinder.
The term “welfare gear” was coined back in TBC as a reference to Badge of Heroism gear. Vendor gear.
Which could very likely never happen. Wondering if it forged is significantly better. There were quite a few pieces of gear that I never saw drop while the raid was current. Now at least there’s a pretty good chance at getting the item to drop.
No, I am looking at the bigger picture. You’re the one who can’t see the forest for the trees.
And the person who has been playing longer and doing harder content will have many pieces of good loot. Also, it’s far more likely that a fresh 120 will not have anything above 380.
And loot tables are slot machines. They are random chances at winning something from the table. It’s gambling, pure and simple.
Slot machines are RNG.
There are more rolls involved, but raid bosses have been slot machines since the game launched.
Because that wouldn’t be an incentive any more. Getting 5 item levels on a 380 item when you’re getting 450+ at the end of the expansion is not going to incentivize anyone to do older content.
But you felt even worse when the item you wanted never dropped. Now there’s a higher chance of getting the item, with some RNG afterwards to add bonuses on top of that. The problem some people have is that they have lost their minds and are focusing way too much on those bonuses instead of being happy just getting an item.
That’s an interesting idea. The problem is it’s a slippery slope. We know your positions on forging. We know you want it removed or severely limited in comparison to what it is now. We have no need to engage in fake diplomacy with you to “compromise” on the functionality. The status quo favors us and you have zero power to actually impact the game’s development anyways.
Except the only thing that was the slot machine was the thing dropping.
Fair enough. I’d say that would be another factor as to why people are leaving. It’s not just one thing of course but a mixture of multiple and I do believe forging to be one of them.
Well, I’m a Wrath baby so I wasn’t around for that. But compared to what we have now, it’s definitely welfare gear. And far worse than what it was.
No there are definitely scenarios where this isn’t the case. Like our Warrior who waited 10 weeks for his Taloc weapon on Mythic because it would never drop for him. And because of forging and loot trading restrictions, we couldn’t help him.
I think you misunderstood. I said your average ilvl
Ie it is always relevant in that it can forge up to around the same level of your current gear (ie around your current progression level).
With a small amount of benefit on top if you’re lucky.
So if you’re 450 ilvl and you complete something rewarding 380 ilvl, you still have the chance of it Titanforging all the way up to ~ 455.
Obviously you still need to get lucky for that jump, but it would be possible. And since we aren’t talking excessive forging, the system could potentially afford to be slightly more generous.
the problem im having and honestly is starting to really wear on me is this.
i have a great friend who ive played with for years, since early on in everquest. hes mostly retired now. he has a grand total of 12 normal uldir boss kills (not clears) and has run roughly 10-15 mythic plus dungeons total. his item level is 398. McForging is only partially to blame, i know.
now another member of our guild has 113 normal boss uldir kills, 76 heroic boss uldir kills, 35 normal BoD kills, and 5 heroic BoD kills. Also running Mythic plus consistantly. his item level is is 396.
to me thats just not right. it feels wrong, feels bad. im not saying titanforging is the only problem, but its definitely part if it.
This had happen to me on multiple expansions. It was always a weapon upgrade I was after but… When I MT in Vanilla I only see a T2 helm drop once. We were at the point of sharding every other class helmet. I recieved a T2.5 helmet before I ever got a T2. Another occasion was the spear gun from WoD. I never seen it drop with weekly clears. Just bad luck on the slot machine.
I find this to be the most ironic thing I think you’ve stated all night, but I’ll let it slide.
News to no one. That isn’t the point or the argument – I highly recommend carefully listening to what people say instead of assuming.
You seem to not understand what slot machines are. Allow me to explain in more simple terms. Slot machines have pictures on them, in order to “win” – all of the slots need to be the same picture. In other words, how does an RNG table with fixed loot drops with no differentiating “pictures” (different variables of gear) - correlate to a slot machine? There is no gambling involved. You knew what was going to drop, and have a chance to drop. What you’ve been saying more or less says in your mind that anything that isn’t guaranteed, is a slot machine.
Yes. But just because all slot machines are RNG, doesn’t mean that all RNG is slot machines. You contradicted yourself.
Read above. That being said, you’ve made no effort to show any effort to have a constructive debate other than sluggishly push in the direction of “I’m right, and you’re wrong” but have nothing to show for it. I’ve presented my arguments, as many other people have to you. I have nothing further to say to you, until you can prove to me otherwise, all the points I’ve made still stands, and none of yours do.
And it was far more likely to not get an item to drop.
Which is why it’s not very good to point at any specific thing and say “this is why WoW sucks now”.
Welfare gear used to mean getting multiple pieces of raid gear without even looking at the raid. Then WotLK made it even worse since you could get tier gear without stepping foot in a raid.
Back in vanilla we had a Hunter in our guild who went almost a year in BWL without ever seeing Ashjre’thul drop from Chromaggus. He had the DKP, he would have won the item, and he was there every week to try and get it, but it never dropped. So 10 weeks is nothing.
You’re right, I did miss that. But it seems like just another way to push down casuals for not playing the game the “right” way.
And I would argue that it’s a very small part of it.
It’s not ironic though, you’ve got a very narrow view that you’re complaining about while missing the bigger picture yourself.
That is news to a bunch of people given how much pushback there is against WF/TF and how it “killed” progression.
You are the one confused about what slot machines are. WoW dungeon and raid bosses have always been slot machines. WF/TF/stats are just extra rolls on top of getting an item.
Explain to me how a slot machine does not rely at all upon RNG. Because I need to get over to Las Vegas and win some money.
Now you’re just ignoring everything I’ve said so you can push your holier than thou attitude. You need to stop projecting your faults onto me. You are the one doing the “I’m right and you’re wrong” spiel.
So try again when you have a real argument that doesn’t rely upon contradictory nonsense.
I heard the term maybe once during the entirety of BC, and the person using it got shouted down. For the people for whom badge gear was an upgrade, the content - then called “Heroic” - was more difficult than Mythic+ is to the people doing that for upgrades now. The person who used it was probably someone who way outgeared that content.
I have to say, I’m mostly on the same side as you in this thread, but I think that’s a terrible idea. When a 415 mythic raider does a trivial world quest or whatever, which is ludicrously easy for him, he can get a 420, while it cuts off at 305 for a new 120 with 300 ilvl for which the content is actually a challenge? No, that extreme of “rich get richer” is rightfully rejected.
Better to limit how far it can forge from the base item level.
Citation? Where is this stated.
Don’t quite remember that. I still felt the need to raid as a complete noob back then to get good gear.
Yeah but imagine having that celebration of getting the piece to drop at all and knowing you had a quality weapon for the rest of the raid. The only luck was the game putting the weapon in your hand. Now it’s putting the weapon in your hand with multiple layers of RNG.
I bet no Mythic raiding MM Hunter would turn down a Mythic Titanforged 415+ Pearl Diver’s Compass.
Its stated right here, the importance you place on gear in regards to progression, both the sense of it and the reality.
Weapon cant titanforge.
OK? Yeah, I’m done with this. You’re constantly demanding proof from me while you get to make up whatever wild claims you can imagine.
You sit there and demand proof from me. So I’m going to do it in kind when you make claims as well.
No where did I say that progression is solely based off the gear I obtain. It’s a part of it, yes, but it’s not the one and only factor of how I define progression. Again, nice try.
It’s so nice to be told how I think.
Not telling you how to think, I restated exactly what you said, if you can’t make a valid point, don’t try and insert yourself in a conversation that is out of your depth
Speaking of valid points, it’s quite telling that you find the need to argue over he said/she said versus the actual topic. Which, by the way, was whether or not titanforging has gotten out of control. I happen to think that it is, and yes, in some cases it does fiddle with progression, both the sense and the reality. If you’d care to discuss that versus this red herring that you seem to be stuck upon, let me know.
The topic was someone complaining about getting gear, which in and of itself is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with forging from a gameplay/design point of view, just the psychology of individuals.