50/50 ToGC is easily the most toxic I've ever seen raiding

WoW Classic Cataclysm Classic Discussion
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Wanna give a source for your definition? I have found others that disagree with your main sticking point and are more concise. I also play P2W games regularly.

"“Pay To Win” is defined as games in which you get an advantage in the game if you spend real money on items, weapons or features and are thus clearly superior to other players.

Most of the time, such games are free-to-play, making it very easy to get started in the game."

“Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.”

“P2W is used in gaming with the meaning “Pay to Win,” to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPC’s”

This is a blatant falsehood.

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Make friends and join guilds. Build relationships.

If my brother started playing again tomorrow I would have him decked in H++ gear within a week. 0 Gold spent.

People will help you if you are willing to help in return.

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Don’t even have to do that, though it does help.

Had three friends join in the past month, two were 4.7K GS a week after hitting 80 and one is just hitting 4.6K. They did this all via PUG H++ dungeons/voa/naxx. They are all poor in terms of game money.
Sadly wasn’t able to help them as much as I wanted to so 90% of this was without my help.

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What chances does a new player who isn’t your brother have in your scenario?

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Join a guild and do the same thing.

My guild is constantly running H++ on new alts and mains gearing offspecs.

Just geared a warlock out and it’s TOGC ready, used a mix of pug H++ from lfg and guild h++ groups and cheap crafted gear on the auction house. Ebonweave and such that costs a couple hundo gold, easily obtainable this amount of gold with quests.

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want me to gift you free eu account so you can start new and see how will you catch up with end tier raiding? :slight_smile: i’ll watch you closely to see how many hours you’ll play and what you’ll do, it will be super fun to see what you will do to level proff…get gems/enchants or even find groups for anything when you’re fresh 80, if you’re up to that challenge tell me so we can make the deal :smiley:

there are a lot of definition of pay 2 win but in general it is any system where a player can purchase something that is not superficial or cosmetic. so if you buy gold “token” and we all know that you can buy raid gear with gold “called gdkp” “ticket” or arena boost…that’s mean wow is p2w

this was the highlight among all definitions.

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This is open to interpretation though. You could move the goal posts by saying 5 seconds longer is an “absurd amount of time”.

I think spending a few months to gear out in bis is an acceptable amount of time.

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seems to be missing from all of mine, odd, doesn’t seem to be a shared part of the definition. can you provide a source? Also telling that your “solid definition” instantly becomes “open to interpretation”.

Go for it, would love to prove you wrong both in debate or in practice.

No it legit doesn’t. The game has zero supported P2W features or encouragement. Players buying currency from third party sites to use in game is not pay to win. That is bad actors breaking rules, not a supported design aspect of the game. This means, since the game is not supported in anyway like contemporary P2W games, that WoW is not P2W.

You can progress and kill 25HM LK without having to ever buy anything with real money, from either blizzard or other players. There are no paywalls outside of a subscription fee preventing you from progressing.

Again, it sounds like you majorly dislike players buying gold, which is not a bad stance to have. I dislike that people feel the need to do it in a non-P2W game. However the game itself is not, even retail, designed around or requiring additional transactions to progress.

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this was the top link on search about pay2win
https://www.makeuseof.com/what-is-pay-to-win-in-video-games/

you’re joking right? then tell me what is the token in shop doing???

cool so we have a deal add me on discord
censored
I’ll give u new eu account and see how you’ll start character and catch up to end tier raiding & How many weeks/months that will take.

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Is a token fundamentally required? or is it an optimal purchase that you can play the game without ever needing to buy?

I refer back to this

Buying a WoW token give zero tangible benefits to progressing your character that you couldn’t already get without ever buying one. One again, as I said before, that’s scraping the bottom of the barrel for examples and it is still a bad one that doesn’t fit any of the generally accepted definitions of a P2W game.

The token also, and was initially implemented, to function as a way to pay your sub with in game gold and to fund subs for people from countries with different online gaming billing structures.

The token provides no shortcuts, no player power, and is not required.

Sure, I’ll even accept your moved goal posts of leveling to 80 then gearing. I’ll add you once I am able to do so if it means that much to you, any other hoops you want to add?

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among the people who won’t pay “not everyone can do that”
among the people who will pay irl money “every single one of them will do that”

are you living on another world? should i link you my post 1.5years ago about “token is coming 100% because blizzard know how massive the RMT in classic and wish to get a share out of it” Blizzard have zero care about anything else, you maybe don’t have rich friends irl…every single one of them join wow…instant buy +20token on day1 of their character creation because they know it’s a must to level proff/buy boosts/get consumables.

well…save my discord id on note and delete that from your quote, i don’t want others to add me :stuck_out_tongue:

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This is your chosen thought process, it is not a reality. I play P2W games, I actively pay to win in those games, if WoW had any P2W elements there wouldn’t be a debate on if the game was or wasn’t P2W.

The actions of players, independent of blizzard, do not mean the game is P2W. P2W is a design choice, not something taken in half measures.

This is your opinion, not a factual source to reference.

Oh I do, they all consider the WoW token a waste of money. They know nothing is hard gated behind being poor in game, gold legit falls from the sky.

I have three max level professions, smithing, minning, and engi. I didn’t pay a single cent of real world money to level them.

Again, it really seems like you dislike the actions of players and not that the game is legit P2W. Our disconnect is entirely because of it.
I don’t disagree that people buy gold with the intent of wanting to progress faster but it isn’t something supported by, encouraged, or built into the gameplay itself. Which makes the game not P2W by design intent and by generally accepted definitions of P2W.

Let me see if I can share the Mobile/MMO whale discord I am in, they all laugh at WoW being pay to win and these are some of the sweatiest, deep pocketed, whales around. If they can pay for a 1% increase to exp gains they will, cash shop item is a .005% power increase? they buy it. Heck, I even know people who would BOT or RMT on GaiaOnline for that currency.

oop, did it. My bad. Also just a heads up, if our discord interactions are just you berating me I will just drop the entire experiment instantly.

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well there shouldn’t be any debate xD the debate existed because some people refuse to accept that fact that wow is “Pay2win in non-direct way” & that’s because blizzard is selling gold on shop and with that gold you can save a lot of time/effort, so basically Token’s buyers(aka legit gold buyer) gain advantage over others if they have same time frame.

also when it come to average players…
among the people who won’t pay “not everyone will kill 25m LK-HC”
among the people who will pay irl money “every single one of them will kill&farm 25LK-HC”

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I am gonna take this as an admission that the game itself is not designed nor intended to be a P2W game and further validate my thoughts that you just dislike players who participate in the practice of RMT. Which is a valid stance to have. You have walked yourself back on this several times and I think we are connecting here on the intent behind your reasoning even if the language is not correct/shared.

This is not correct. Average players who put in the work have an equal shot to clear content among those others who play legitimately as well. If someone doesn’t clear the content it’s not due to a lack of money(sub fees notwithstanding). Can be BiS geared by swiping and can still lack the skill to play properly/not be a burden to the raid. Gold is not a hinderance to completing content, especially in Wrath.

As to “…everyone who RMT’s will kill 25H LK…” I find to be a bit of a nothing statement in this comparison, because it requires viewing the game through the lens of being P2W, which it isn’t. Exploitive and ToS breaking activity by players doesn’t make WoW pay to win, the game being designed/redesigned around blocking progression from those who do not pay makes a game P2W. If there are intentional detriments to playing without spending money you are in a P2W game, there are no intentional barriers placed on WoW by the developers to incentivize or require real money being spent to progress. WoW does not require real money to reach end game or progress to end game.

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Not true about the same time frame. You could buy 10 million gold and I wont buy any gold. We can get to 80 at the same time. You having 10 million gold does not mean you will get Flare of the Heavens before I do. I could get it for free 10-20 weeks before you even see it drop. Your gold didnt make a bit of difference in that. You could do GDKPs every week and I will join a guild and I will likely be fully BiS before you.

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Soft LC is a good thing tbh.

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You cannot buy better drop rates

You cannot buy better gear than whats already on the loot table

You cannot buy the gear without killing the bosses

Everything you buy has been won by people for free before you bid on it unless you’re the first team to kill that boss.

Congrats on paying to tie.

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Which is why I think people who RMT in WoW are absolute fools. They gain nothing but a perceived advantage over, well nothing really. If player power/progression was available for purchase this would be a much different and probably dead FTP game by now.

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They are absolute fools lol. Ban em all. If it was p2w itd have never survived even 5 years.

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but you can pay to buy a 100% chance for any of your green-geared character to be inside a raid where certain amount of items will drop, vs poor fresh characters that will miss such opportunity aka missing a lot of raid resets before they step into that raid

also you can pay to buy 100%chance of winning any item you can use if it drops, this is the reality of whales in gdkp’s

but you can buy the boss kill itself , it’s called ticket in classic and NOTE “in past 15years of wow top guilds sold end tier spots for many years” why was that even a thing? because many people couldn’t have the chance to kill end game mythic bosses so they decided to pay to get that kill & Loot they would’ve never obtained without paying.

lol…then why are those asian pay2win games alive after decades ? :stuck_out_tongue:
also the arena in wow is filled with boosters who accept gold or irl cash
classic been manifested with RMT ever since day 1 yet it hasn’t died and blizzard legalized that with token LOL

Tbh i find it funny how the classic community shifted xD i remember back in early classic during 2019 i made a topic about “I bought my tier 2Head with XXXX gold from the winner” and i got so many salty comments because of the mentality of “omg you paid to get loot” and i was like…((we was 8rogues in raid and i lost the roll and if i always join pugs with many rogues, all of them will roll then i have very low chance in obtaining it so why not pay to have 100%chance to get it if it drop?))

but look at the wow & the community now! somehow all SR pugs got replaced with gdkp’s and the community now seems to be in love with those tons of gdkp’s :smiley: