395/400 Item Level Emissaries: Yes please

[Xintao-tichondrius]

It is the best system IMO for hardcore or casual players with upgrade token systems or similar ones. It doesn’t invalidate gear obtained by raiders/m+ players. Meanwhile it offers exciting paths of deterministic rewards for questing players to work towards.

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

I mean, I don’t really know what you want. I understand the way the game is right now, but I don’t love everything about the way the game is right now. I think there are better ways to approach it, and I’ve described some. You don’t address my actual suggestions, you only try to exchange gotchas and call everything I say a strawman, which makes me feel like trying to have a real discussion with you is pointless so I admit I’m temped into throwing dumb gotchas right back.

Take a note from the green above. The exact same problems arose in a previous TF thread with this poster. He argues to argue. He refuses to give ground and when in doubt just states that we all only care about holding the ‘common player’ back, rather than realize we’re trying desperately to improve the situation for the vast majority of players.

I’d rather people care about their progression, rather than see it vanish half-way through a tier.

[Mirzim-thrall]

The dumbest part is that I was in that TF thread, I remember this guy, and I remember discussion proved pointless and I just gave up…I’m just an idiot.

[Jalen-emerald-dream (Jalën)]

It’s pretty much “you’re wrong because I say you are”. Logic will not sway this guy

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

No, this is where I stop responding, because you can’t understand the simple concept that is: Just because I do content that has no chance of progressing my character for no reason, that doesn’t mean that the vast majority of other players do.

And? You’re arguing a point I never made. I did not at any point say people should raid with no chance of progressing their characters. I dispute the claim that this change automatically obsoletes content for everyone. Those statements are not the same thing.

Your inability to link that concept to the idea behind why nearly completely obliterating the character progression gradient is just a terrible idea just shows me your mental capacity on the topic.

Ah yes, ad hominem definitely demonstrates yours.

Also grats on still not being able to back up your statement that people are current unsubscribing because of this, despite the prior expansion not seeing such an exodus while using the exact. same. systems.

lol

So that’s a yes on the getting ragey part. I explained already that I believe that’s part of the reason why it’s happening. Hell, I wrote above…

I’m trying to rationalize why Blizzard would increase Emissary/WQ gear to the level they are. And the reason they gave us doesn’t make sense to me. I mean it does, but it doesn’t seem to be enough of a justification. I know my characters have capped out that I don’t do group content with. I speculated that if casuals were in the same shoes they might not have a reason to login and that this may be Blizzard’s attempt to provide them a reason to login.

That’s not a difficult to understand concept. If you don’t agree with that assessment, cool. But then explain to me why you think Blizzard is making this change. What possible explanation can you come up with that makes any sense given the situation? I mean, if such a direct comparison to Legion is valid, what’s the justification for the change that makes sense? Because they’re not doing it for no reason. They think their reason is justified. They think it makes sense. And they think it’s in the best interests of the health of the game. And they’re doing it knowing that there’s going to be a segment of the population that’s salty about it. If you’ve got a better theory I’m all ears.

Long story short. You’re arguing to argue. Cheers.

Nice way to step out of a discussion when you can’t win it and you can’t cope with that.

[Xintao-tichondrius]

So does Blizzard expect raiders, mythic+ players to keep playing for warfroges/titanforges?

Also why should someone push 10 weeks of PVP conquest cap (5000 conquest poins) to reach 400 ilevel gear which may be easier to access with one world quest now?

Warforge/titaforge is killing gear progression in WoW. This huge ilevel jumps would not be needed between and during “seasons” if Blziz dialed it down and gave back real gear progression again.

Being able to enchant and gem your gear meant something. Now it can be invalidated within a month of a raid coming out? >.>

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

I mean, I don’t really know what you want. I understand the way the game is right now, but I don’t love everything about the way the game is right now.

We’re not in disagreement here, there’s plenty I dislike about the state of the game currently.

I think there are better ways to approach it, and I’ve described some. You don’t address my actual suggestions,

Is that the discussion you want to have? To talk about potential alternatives? I mean, we could go down a giant rabbit hole talking about what things they could do differently. I generally don’t go there because it’s a bunch of theorycrafted nonsense that isn’t worth the effort of typing up. I write things, you write things, we talk about the things the other person suggests, we debate those things that aren’t ever going to happen until we tire of it, then we go back to talking about how the game is and it doesn’t matter in the slightest. I mean, we could go there but that’s a different thread than this.

you only try to exchange gotchas and call everything I say a strawman, which makes me feel like trying to have an honest dialogue with you is pointless so I admit I’m temped into throwing dumb gotchas right back.

I’m not trying to “win”. It’s not possible. We’re just talking about our opinions. If something I say confuses you because of the way I write it, maybe it’s not clear, ask me to clarify. I don’t mind. But don’t summarize what I write and in doing so change the meaning entirely or try to spin a statement into meaning something else so that you can argue with it. That’s a strawman. I’m going to point it out. It’s not a gotcha I’m just not going to engage you on something I didn’t say. I’m going to point out what it is and end the tangent.

[Mirzim-thrall]

I mean, we could go down a giant rabbit hole talking about what things they could do differently. I generally don’t go there because it’s a bunch of theorycrafted nonsense that isn’t worth the effort of typing up.

Seems a hell of a lot more interesting/productive than what we’ve been doing.

And some of the things discussed as “what ifs” on the forums HAVE ended up happening. People talked theories about a potential “friends and family mode” for raiding at great length before flex normal mode was added, for an example off the top of my head.

[Zeerionjax-argent-dawn (Zeerionjax)]

This is a stupid decision.

Holy opposite day Batman! I agree, for different reasons of course.

Don’t give a flip about heroic tiers, I’ll start caring heroic raiding when all the members of my raid group that the current dev team chased off with their terribly stupid decisions comes back, till then, /spit

However, I don’t like the idea of getting rewards that are raid tier because, as much as I don’t give a rip about raiding anymore(see above), I used to raid and some tiers should only be available through raiding, at least until the next tier is released.

And I sincerely don’t give even a wet turd for m+, it’s lazy design and lazy design shouldn’t be rewarded by players, that it has been, is one of the reasons we’re getting what we are. If you want to know why I think that, go through my post history, I’ve explained why I think m+ is lazy design ad nauseam.

That being said, I get why people like that kind of content, so if you don’t like people complaining about not being able to get into your “leet” groups, why don’t you offer classes on how best to play that kind of content. Cowboy up Buttercup, otherwise, you’re just complaining about people complaining about it, correct? Yes, I am correct.

Semper Fi!

[Akston-bloodhoof (Akston)]

so if you don’t like people complaining about not being able to get into your “leet” groups, why don’t you offer classes on how best to play that kind of content. Cowboy up Buttercup, otherwise, you’re just complaining about people complaining about it, correct? Yes, I am correct.

There are countless youtube videos and class guides on “The basics on how to play your class if you have no clue what you are doing”.

Other than that, it takes experience. Experience running lesser m+ if you want to pug into higher.

Not very complicated.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Seems a hell of a lot more interesting/productive than what we’ve been doing.

Is it? Seriously. Say we spend a lot of time writing up and talking about detailed suggestions and debating the merits and flaws of different alternative systems. In the end we have fundamental differences on how reward systems should work and end up with the same issues with the hypothetical systems that we have with the real one. Except now we’re not even talking about systems that are in game. These things don’t get read by anyone with the power to change anything at Blizzard, they don’t ever comment on this stuff, and we basically just wasted our time. It’s not any more or less productive than our conversation here.

Just saw your edit, people have discussed ideas to death about reward systems. Nothing either of us could say here is going to be new. This debate has been ongoing for quite some time, as you alluded to referencing the forging thread. Interestingly enough, the people who had a problem with forging and the reasons they gave about it are here in this thread and many of those same reasons have come up. Yet again they are upset about the pending changes. Why do you think Blizzard keeps making decisions that are contrary to how some very vocal repeat posters on the forums want things to be? Does that ever cross your mind, that they keep implementing changes that are the direct opposite of how some people want things to be?

[Mirzim-thrall]

If you’re not trying to “win” and you don’t want to talk about how the game could theoretically be improved, what exactly do you want to talk about?

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

I shared my opinion on the topic of 395/400 Emissary, you shared yours. If you want to go further there are numerous points you intentionally avoided responding to that you could follow up on.

Why do you think Blizzard keeps implementing things that are rewarding for casuals that reduce the power gap between the top and the bottom? You know, exactly the opposite of all the people who complained in this thread and, unsurprisingly, the same people who complained about forging? That’s a good one.

[Zeerionjax-argent-dawn (Zeerionjax)]

There are countless youtube videos and class guides on “The basics on how to play your class if you have no clue what you are doing”.

Other than that, it takes experience. Experience running lesser m+ if you want to pug into higher.

Not very complicated.

So, you’re not gonna cowboy up, didn’t think so. May want to not complain about people complaining about not getting into your “leet” groups then.

And I’m not just singling you out, don’t get me wrong, that goes for everyone that wants to whine and moan about people complaining about not getting into their groups. Help others(in the shrinking WoW player base) get to your skill level and you have a larger pool to draw from to play the content you like.

Conversely, if you want to get into groups, put in the time to be catch and spread the m+ STD and stop complaining about not getting into groups.

On a related note, I have plenty of cheese to go with all that whine you’re doi . . . er . . . drinking.

Semper Fi!

[Mirzim-thrall]

Then we’re just in a back and forth telling each other why we’re wrong in increasingly pedantic detail. What about this is anything besides arguing to “win” a forum debate?

If we’ve both stated our opinion on the game as it stands, and you don’t want to talk about any hypotheticals, then it seems the conversation is over to me.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Then we’re just in a back and forth telling each other why we’re wrong in increasingly pedantic detail. What about this is anything besides arguing to “win” a forum debate?

Are you trying to lead me in the direction of copping to trying to “win” the discussion? You keep repeating it over and over again. And you just handwaved my response away with a nonresponse that basically applies to anything at all that either of us could possibly say to each other. “But you’re just going to tell me I’m wrong!” Does that mean that’s why you’re here? Is this a matter of projection?

I’m here because I’m entertained by the discussion. I understand I’m not going to convince the same handful of people who complained about forging and now complained about the ilvl increase of solo content that they should change their minds. As I said earlier in the thread, we’re going to go back and forth, Blizzard isn’t going to change anything so the change is going to happen anyways, you guys are going to be salty, I’ll be happy with the additional content for my alts, life will go on. And in a month or two I’m sure you’ll find something else to complain about that I’ll be back here in favor of and we can do this all over again.

[Mirzim-thrall]

Alright then, as to that last point: Who cares? Why am I suddenly supposed to be mind-reading the Blizzard devs? Obviously they think their current design choices are good. Obviously, I disagree with them. I thought this was established.

Are you trying to lead me in the direction of copping to trying to “win” the discussion?

No, I’m saying I think this is more of a dressed-up slapfight than a discussion (for the both of us) and I’m not enjoying it. I’m saying that’s why I’m not engaging, and why I’m heading out now.

[Avagon-sisters-of-elune]

Alright then, as to that last point: Who cares? Why am I suddenly supposed to be mind-reading the Blizzard devs? Obviously they think their current design choices are good. Obviously, I disagree with them. I thought this was established.

I’d think the point was obvious. It’s not about whether you agree or that they think their design choices are good. It’s about why they continue to make design decisions that are the polar opposite of what you (and the other common names between numerous threads) want. Because your opinions are biased by the way you play and the changes you propose would be highly advantageous to you and negatively impact the average player. You want to fix what you perceive are problems by denying other people progression and simultaneously suggesting something that is, again, more advantageous to you than it is to the average player. The average player is far better off with a 395 or 400 than a 5 ilvl slot specific upgrade token, but that would basically take 410-415 gear and practically guarantee it wasn’t going to get replaced until 8.2.

No, I’m saying I think this is more of a dressed-up slapfight than a discussion (for the both of us) and I’m not enjoying it. I’m saying that’s why I’m not engaging, and why I’m heading out now.

Ah, so like Synsha you also can’t handle people having a different opinion so you have to snarkily bail. Bye!

[Synsha-greymane (Synsha)]

The dumbest part is that I was in that TF thread, I remember this guy, and I remember discussion proved pointless and I just gave up…I’m just an idiot.

See what I mean below? It’s just pointless. It’s just goal post shifting and side-tracking. At no point can he show evidence to back up his own theories. Specifically his main point which is that we must have these gear bumps because the casual player base is quitting…

Heck my entire point was: Provide the casual playerbase more content, don’t simply shift the numbers on their gear and call it “content.” And definitely don’t do that while simultaneously reducing valid content for other players. He’d rather people get less content, because he refuses to budge on any point.

[Tempestwinds-hyjal (Tempestwinds)]

If players are all about gear and ilvl sure - but then why bother playing at all? All gear becomes obsolete at some point and when the new expac rolls around, you just DE all of your current gear anyways. Kind of like the “why make your bed” argument.

If you’re playing for the fun, and challenging aspects of the game - the gear doesn’t matter - it’s the good times and achievements you gain that matter and will last…well, as long as you have your account (to carry the achievement, mount, transmog, etc.).

When you draw your line around a number for when should stop bothering playing a game - you’re setting yourself up to fail because all the numbers always scale upwards from the present.

When numbers are just a tool that allow you to play a game with friends - you can focus more on playing a game and having fun with friends.

Clearly you don’t know the mind of the average MMO player lol. That’s a lovely sentiment on paper, but it ignores the point of what the anti-welfare camp is saying. The “pro” base always wants to label the “anti” as elitist, min-maxing dbags who only care about their parses and hate all casuals. Sure, there are some people like that, but the vast majority of players who have earned their gear chafe at seeing said accomplishments basically invalidated by the welfare gear system. Again, note that this is NOT about catch-up mechanics as a whole, but rather about catch-up mechanics giving the same gear as current heroic raiding and mythic 10’s.