Then we fundamentally disagree. I think it’s silly to see no significant change in character power when progressing across the difficulties.
The better solution then, was to reduce the number of difficulties. Not make their power increases insignificant. It’s like they took the character progression system, and applied an LFR mentality to it. Here’s a bunch of mechanics (difficulties), but none of them matter, except maybe one. And that one is almost outpaced by M+ + WF/TF.
I’m sorry, did I say that? I said prove to me that they are unsubbing, not that they’re the majority. And if they are unsubbing… Why are they unsubbing now when they didn’t in Legion? When WQ were in fact worse than Normal raids of the current tier throughout the expansion?
I mean I’ve said my bit and you’ve said yours. It sounds like we fundamentally disagree in terms of a gradient of power progression. You’d rather goal post shift to keep the majority happy, while I’d rather we press blizzard to give them a straight up better game world to play in.
If you want to pretend that both groups need equal motivation to keep doing content so be it. But we both know that’s not an intellectually honest position. The number of raids I go on and have gone on where I needed zero gear because I already finished gearing from the raid I can’t even count. I’m sure anyone who has raided has been in the same boat. We don’t stop just because we, individually, no longer need gear from the raid.
That statement isn’t true because the content isn’t mutually exclusive. People can and will do both.
Done a lot of things that don’t matter at all. They’re doing what they’re doing for a reason.
There’s zero reason for parity. In fact many of the systems in the game are built with intentional nonparity. Forging as an example is far more impactful for people of lower ilvl than it is for people doing Mythic raiding due to the ilvl cap. They intentionally slow down ilvl increases for those at the top of the pile and speed them up for people at the bottom.
And a chance for a Legendary. Such an important thing getting glossed over is kinda funny.
Significant is subjective. I’ve had debates with people wherein they said 5 ilvl was significant (hell, one of them is a green in this thread) and you’re telling me it’s not.
That’s the solution you like because of your bias. It’s not the “best” solution.
That wasn’t explicit. I’ve had many arguments with people who think that they’re (raiders, specifically people who raid heroic/mythic) the majority. They’re the geniuses that like to make statements like, “the forums are a representative sample of the playerbase!” However that doesn’t change my point at all. I speculated that casuals were probably hitting an ilvl wall because doing the same content I have and my response to that was to simply stop logging those toons in. Additionally I’ve seen threads where people have made that exact point. Demanding proof is idiotic at best because we both know that those numbers don’t exist anywhere, which is why I was explicit about it being my assessment of the situation. I even prefaced the hypothetical with “if this is happening”. To me, that’s one of the few ways this entire situation (Blizzard increasing ilvls to the degree they are) makes sense. If you refuse to engage on such a point that’s your prerogative. Beyond that, we’re all just waffling in this thread for no reason as the change is happening tomorrow and I highly doubt anything said here is going to impact that.
Don’t be dishonest. The above statement is. You’re not here arguing that casuals should get 395/400 ilvl gear from a different source of new content. You’re here arguing that it should not happen at all.
And I don’t think it’s intellectually honest to act like players who raid don’t and/or shouldn’t care about gear at all.
I only do it for guild relationships myself, and that notably does not apply for pug players, who make up a significant portion of raiding players like it or not.
So again, this is about minimizing ilvl gaps, not about removing gear walls.
I got more legendaries from Blingtron that I ever did from Emissaries. That is an incredibly poor thing to hold on to. Especially since even that was an awful way to get Legiondaries when MoS existed.
Care to quote where I said anything remotely resembling that?
And? Less people will pug for things then once they no longer need upgrades. Kinda like they do now anyways when they no longer need things. Not sure what your point is here.
You’re taking a statement out of context to pretend it means something else. That’s called a strawman. Also, there’s no reason to believe that there’s only one reason they’re making the change. They told us one reason, I believe also about removing gear walls, you think it’s not about either of those two but about minimizing ilvl gaps. You’re free to believe whatever you want. It really doesn’t make any difference how you want to label it.
And? Is this where you get ragey because I won’t change my opinion to be in line with yours?
Nice deflect. I get what you’re doing though, pretend the rewards from Emissaries in Legion were crap and now they’re ridiculous heroic gear! OMGZ hyperbolize all the things! Completely legit argument you made. Thumbs up.
I am just saying that you are complaining about a mass exodus from WoW because casual players are hitting a “wall” of gear yet casual players in Legion (one of the most successful expansions) saw absolutely no signs of an exodus and LFR gear was THE highest a casual could ever hope of getting. Not 2 difficulties higher.
I said “hey, if players are quitting due to gear walls, Blizzard should remove gear walls for EVERYONE by adding universal upgrade items like they did in the past.”
You responded by talking about how raiders don’t need gear as a motivation to keep raiding, and saying that there doesn’t need to be parity in the gearing paths across difficulty levels.
I honestly don’t know how else to interpret that exchange. You don’t want parity, you’re talking exactly about closing the gap. If it was about removing gear walls, then providing upgrades for all levels (not just solo play) would be the thing to do, but you just said you don’t want that kind of parity, so.
Don’t you know gear is only a motivation to keep playing when it fits his narrative? Raiders don’t need gear to stay subbed. That WQ hero definitely does though even though this change is only going to delay their “inevitable unsub due to gear wall” by 3 weeks.
Actually that’s you failing to understand what I said. I’m not complaining about a mass exodus from wow. I’m trying to rationalize why Blizzard would increase Emissary/WQ gear to the level they are. And the reason they gave us doesn’t make sense to me. I mean it does, but it doesn’t seem to be enough of a justification. I know my characters have capped out that I don’t do group content with. I speculated that if casuals were in the same shoes they might not have a reason to login and that this may be Blizzard’s attempt to provide them a reason to login. I’ve seen several threads pop up where this was the point made by people recently.
Item progression that is time gated and randomized to keep them plugging along for another 2 months until 8.2 comes out (hopefully) seems like a practical reason to make such a change, particularly if they’re seeing casuals unsub due to not having content to do. Legion was different. People had legendaries to chase. They had artifact power to chase that gave non-trivial upgrades. And I think casuals deserve progression. I’m not butthurt or salty about it, even though I do heroic and I do my M10’s on multiple characters a week. I still like the idea of being able to gear my alts and the idea that it benefits casuals by giving them something they might like too (and plenty of people have voiced support for it) then even better.
Yeah, I’m so tired of the constant “if you’re raiding for gear, you’re doing it wrong” being used to shut down any and all feedback about raid reward structures.
We can wax poetic on the forums all day about how we should play for the pure joy of challenge and friendship, but at the end of the day many raiders do need extrinsic motivation just like any other player.
This entire game is built around chasing gear and power progression. Let’s admit it. Even as someone who has gone to many raids while loot locked just for fun and friends, I still care about gear progression as well. It still matters, I still get burned out when it’s in a bad state.
No, this is where I stop responding, because you can’t understand the simple concept that is: Just because I do content that has no chance of progressing my character for no reason, that doesn’t mean that the vast majority of other players do.
Your inability to link that concept to the idea behind why nearly completely obliterating the character progression gradient is just a terrible idea just shows me your mental capacity on the topic.
But go on and tell me more about why we should simply string along the majority of the player base by using ilvl rather than content. I’m sure they won’t catch on. It works for raiders because there’s actually different content we’re moving through. Good luck making it work when the people you’re talking about, care so little about character progress that they literally inhibit themselves from progressing forward.
Also grats on still not being able to back up your statement that people are current unsubscribing because of this, despite the prior expansion not seeing such an exodus while using the exact. same. systems.
Long story short. You’re arguing to argue. Cheers.
Heroic and lower raiding is already being pushed into insignificance by infinitely farmable mythic plus (why kill a heroic boss for a 20% chance a gear when I can do a mythic dungeon for 60%?). The difference between a m+9 and a world quest though is that one takes some semblance of brain power.
First, I didn’t say there doesn’t need to be parity. I said there isn’t parity. As in right now, the game systems are designed so the results aren’t the same. There’s no reason to pretend that it should be the same either.
Second, my position wasn’t that raiders don’t care about gear, it was that gear isn’t the only factor that influences them because there’s a social obligation they have too. In your example you made that point by saying that you only feel that way towards your guildies, but you don’t for pugs. It wasn’t a confusing or complicated point, but somehow you decided to strawman that into “raiders don’t care about gear!” Pretending that’s what my position was is just a lie.
That’s because you aren’t interested in an honest dialogue, we have opinions at odds with each others and you’re trying to “win” the debate. Except there isn’t any winning. Blizzard is going to implement the change tomorrow and life will go on.
Legion world quest gear was kept relevant for most of the expansion with ilevel increases. But Legion world quest ilevel increases did not outpace the gear from LFR or epic quality PVP gear.
If Blizzard is concerned about the gear delta between high end raiders/mythic + players widening compared to world quest players they can address this in other ways.
I mean, I don’t really know what you want. I understand the way the game is right now, but I don’t love everything about the way the game is right now. I think there are better ways to approach it, and I’ve described some. You don’t address my actual suggestions, you only try to exchange gotchas and call everything I say a strawman, which makes me feel like trying to have an honest dialogue with you is pointless so I admit I’m temped into throwing dumb gotchas right back.
If players are all about gear and ilvl sure - but then why bother playing at all? All gear becomes obsolete at some point and when the new expac rolls around, you just DE all of your current gear anyways. Kind of like the “why make your bed” argument.
If you’re playing for the fun, and challenging aspects of the game - the gear doesn’t matter - it’s the good times and achievements you gain that matter and will last…well, as long as you have your account (to carry the achievement, mount, transmog, etc.).
When you draw your line around a number for when should stop bothering playing a game - you’re setting yourself up to fail because all the numbers always scale upwards from the present.
When numbers are just a tool that allow you to play a game with friends - you can focus more on playing a game and having fun with friends.