What you call grieifing, does not mean it is exactly griefing. You do not get to say what the rules are or decide on what is classed as something. Especially since people do have the right to initiate a vote-kick for any to no reason at all, as long as the vote-kick passes.
On top of that, how do you exactly know who initiates a vote-kick?
The icon at the bottom of the screen is labeled âgroup finderâ. That is what Iâm referring to.
If this is your âgotchaâ moment, you failed.
I think you meant to say this directly to the OP. Iâm merely voicing an opinion that coincides with the OPâs first post.
Nope, the 30-minute debuff needs to stay right where it is.
All reducing it to 5 minutes will accomplish is creating more grief, this time as tanks and healers bail on dungeon runs they donât want to do like they did back in Wrath of the Lich King.
I donât think anyone is talking about when people bail from an instance. Yes the 30 minute debuff should definitely apply.
The argument is about being kicked and not knowing why or for ridiculous reasons, like being âslowâ.
If the kick is justified (i.e. bad tank, bad healer, offline, and the like) yes, kick with the 30 minute debuff.
Iâve never encountered a tank or healerâŚor anyone for that matter, bail due to the random dungeon selected. Iâm sure it happens, my head isnât in the sand, but I have not experienced it.
Personally, I would like to see more dialogue between players before anyone initiates a kick. Perhaps the player is having tech difficulties or something is happening to them IRL. Weâve become this insensitive and intolerant type of gamerâŚand thatâs kinda weird when we have to depend on random people to help complete events in game.
I understand that there are those who disagree with me and will say that youâre basically being forced to play with those you donât want to. Thatâs simply not true. Random is random. If you donât want anyone bogging you down, donât use a random dungeon unless you have a full party.
The kick system doesnât differentiate and doesnât give different penalties based on why you were kicked; if it did, it would be heavily abused. Imagine for a moment that âbeing slowâ and getting kicked only got you a 5-minute debuff, but being a bad tank or a troll got you a 30-minute debuff. Do you really think groups like the one the OP is describing would pick the 5-minute reason? Or the 30-minute reason?
My money is on them picking the 30-minute reason just to punish the player even further because they can.
It doesnât happen now because of the current penalty, but it used to happen a lot. Back when the cross-realm dungeon finder was added during Wrath of the Lich King, getting kicked from a group didnât give you a penalty at all. Douchebag tanks and healers realized that, and theyâd hold groups hostage in the event that they got a dungeon they didnât want to do. Theyâd demand that the group kick them so they could instantly queue for a new dungeon.
The problem? The kick system has an internal cooldown in it. Specifically to prevent people from abusing the system by kicking people on a whim whenever they feel like it. But as a result of tanks and healers holding these groups hostage, many people found themselves triggering the internal cooldown. No ability to kick forced the DPS in the group to bail, getting a deserter debuff themselves and then having to wait an additional 20 minutes in the queue once the debuff wore off.
Thatâs why getting kicked hits you with a long penalty now. Because of tanks and healers holding groups hostage. And theyâd absolutely start doing it again if given the chance.
Iâm calling fake and alt hopping with you single post being this buddy.
I understand and appreciate what you are saying. For the most part, I agree with you.
However, this is all on random (unless you queue as an already formed party). The dungeon choice is random. You canât pick and choose the TW dungeon you want from the group finder window. Iâve had to muscle through dungeons that I hate in order to get my badges and complete the quest for TW.
When queuing for random stuff, it might behoove some to lower expectations.
Why? Because Iâm agreeing with OP?
Conspiracy theory much?
Oh, I know itâs random, but people were still leaving groups and requeing in the hope they wouldnât get the dungeon they hate.
For this season in particular, I know Dawnbreaker is a dungeon that gets a lot of flak. If they removed the deserter debuff from getting kicked or shrunk it down to 5 minutes, I guarantee you there would be tanks and healers holding Dawnbreaker groups hostage. Why? Because they simply donât want to do that dungeon and will try their luck again with the random dungeon finder to avoid it as often as possible.
If they just drop them both to 15 minutes this wonât happen and it will likely cut the complaints about being kicked down as well. There is no reason to lower the debuff for being kicked but leave it at 30 minutes for leaving because as others have said that incentivizes poor behavior and basically rewards you for being kicked.
Lower them both. Heroics barely take 15 minutes, TWs and normals are even faster, there is really no reason for it to be 30 minutes anymore because dungeons donât take 30 minutes.
Thatâs extremely bizarre behavior. Iâm thankful Iâve never encountered it. I just thank the Almighty for the instance because the queue times are outrageously long. Especially if Iâm queuing with my hubby and weâre both DPS. If course when I tank, itâs instant.
I understand the frustration when youâre placed in an instance with several low levels looking to level up quickly. They have less of an arsenal than the higher level toons. But I wouldnât kick them⌠unless they were constantly dying because they were standing in bad stuff.
Maybe all instances should have the NPC feature. That way others wonât be held hostage and abuse of the kick system would not happen. Personally, I like being able to knock out content with NPCâs to aid me.
This is more than made up for by scaling though there are a few level ranges that you donât benefit much from the scaling when youâre working your way through them. At level 71 youâre a god in TWW normal dungeons but by 77-80 you feel weak again.
Same applies to timewalking. Youâll never be more powerful in TW than you are at level 11.
So very true.
I appreciate your responses. Youâve been able to get the point across without all the bitter hate vitriol that others have.
Itâs refreshing to have a dialogue without being belittled, so⌠again⌠thank you.
Just like your failed gotcha moment of thinking you make the rules with:
Like seriously, it is called Random Dungeon Finder Because youâre queuing for random dungeons. Group Finder down on the bottom right doesnât mean finding a group, it could mean looking for group content.
Plus, you can group up with a full party of friends and run a dungeon. So, no, it is not finding a random group, it is a random dungeon finder. Even the development calls it Random Dungeon Finder.
Thank you for reiterating my point. You just repeated everything that I have been saying throughout this thread.
Fair point, Mal.
It is by their own definition, despite their unwillingness to enforce it. That simple, sorry. Every other game does, too.
Something Blizzard should be tracking, just like any other game (The ones that also make less money than them yet have better customer support and rule enforcement)
Even other people admit, itâs griefing. Even âleavingâ groups apparently was âgriefingâ enough for Blizzard to âattemptâ to help solve the issue. Also, M+ leavers.
So, point out where it says initiating a vote to kick on a player is griefing. Iâll wait.
And look at how bad every other game is. So much more worried about over policing their games and less worried about proper content for their games.
But youâre acting like youâre onlu getting queued with the same 4 other players. There is millions of players. If groups are voting you out of the dungeon, then you must be doing something.
But lets get the fact: Blizzard is the ones who makes the rules, not you, not I, not all of us players. Blizzard doesnât determind initiating the Vote-to-Kick as griefing, so it should not be classed as griefing.
The thing is, the rule is extremely vague. There is no knowing how many times a person has to intentinally leave a Mythic+ dungeon before Blizzard takes action against the person.
âBehavior that intentionally detracts from othersâ enjoyment (such as griefing, throwing, feeding, etc.) is unacceptable.â That definitely detracts from othersâ enjoyment!
The other line is even âconduct intended to unreasonably undermine or disrupt the Game experiences of others, deliberate inactivity or disconnectingâ so, people feeding or doing nothing are also supposed to be actioned for griefing.
At enforcing rules and the like? Seems a lot better than this one!
Afraid those are different departments, in case you were unawares.
Just track all vote kicks, itâs not that difficult.
Any citations for millions of retail players that are running LFG/LFD?
Like⌠Being from X server, being a certain race?
Right, and their rules are pretty clear itâs considered griefing.
They have, they just refuse to enforce it.
Right, so we get to say whatever we want on the subject until they do.
Would be nice if they actually enforced griefing/throwing rules in PvP too!