Actually cloaked rogues are stopping magic damage so it will be like a ret paladin trying to hit them unless they have changed cloak.
I mean when it’s not proc’d we can still hit them since it will be physical
Unless they hit their physical defensive
I dont care about the opinions trying to separate up DW and 2H functionality. 2H doesnt need to be the “Higher obliterates” choice by default. Just make Obliterate actually do a large chunk of our damage REGARDLESS of DW or 2H weapon. Frost needs to hit like a truck. I dont want DW to be the default auto attack bs that it is now. 2H/DW should be purely a cosmetic choice and our damage should come from our striking abilities. They should just make a 2h rune that has razorice + str proc baked in so that choosing that choice doesnt feel bad and balance 2H so that prefering DW doesnt feel bad either.
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This is why i was saying bake RI into the mastery and allow 2h to get 2 runes. That way we can match dw and play around with the new runes
if you bake RI into mastery dual wield just drops it off one of its weapons and picks up the next best dps option. still does’nt fix myriad other abilities that scale better with swing speed/ autos
So you bake RI into mastery so it does both the frost damage increase and gives debuff stacks. You allow 2h frost to have 2 runes. So in this point 2h and dw have the same amount of runes as dw. Then you increase 2h km procs by taking the formula and split it. So you have 1 for dw and one for 2h.
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If Blizzard wanted that they would’ve just had it be transmog. The excuse of “different animations” doesn’t even apply here because 2h’s are still using the DW animations on Alpha. People want 2h back because of that different feel. I don’t see how adding back MotFW and tweaking/buffing Obliteration to have more synergy with it better would end up negatively impacting DW, especially considering Hypothermic Presence and Hysteria are looking to allow ridiculously long breathe times, possibly making it a rotational CD.
Haven’t played frost in a long time, but couldn’t they change km to have it where it procs from damaging abilities or skills? Not sure if that would help much. Bottom line though, it needs to change to be balanced with DW.
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Thank you for sharing that in a clear and concise manner. This is the perfect time for suggestions on how to balance dw/2h.
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I agree.
I really enjoyed big obliterates and part of me would really enjoy that happening again, but at the same time I think that was a major factor when it comes to balancing issues between dw and 2h frost and I don’t think it makes sense to bring back MoP/WoD 2h frost’s reliance on big obliterate hits. I say this as someone whose favorite frost dk playstyle was MoP/WoD 2h frost. -
There are other ways to go about balancing runeforges. One idea might be separate runeforges for 1h and 2h weapons. The 2h runeforges would be more powerful than the 1h version to make up for the fact that 2h can only have 1 runeforge while dw can have 2. That’s just one idea and there could be better ideas out there.
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That’s really annoying. I didn’t realize that we wouldn’t get enough crits to achieve the intended PPM. Something will have to change to balance it out.
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I’ll put it this way. That intention will have to change because both 2h/dw need to be viable. Frost will now be a 2h/dw spec and mechanics need to be re-tuned to allow for both to be viable.
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this is a major point of contention especially from a pvp balance perspective. obliterate felt good back then because you could literally chunk half of a clothies hp with a single oblit when stars aligned. but there is no way that can be considered balanced with how easy it was to pull off damage like that in frosts kit. no rampup or setup + easy big damage should be a nono for every class in the game. id say make obliterate hit harder and shift the damage out of more passive sources for it for both specs. our main rune spender shouldnt feel terrible to use.
its annoying because on paper 2h has a higher chance to proc it per hit than dw and it still falls short. the issue comes in mechanically that it doesnt make up for the overall less swings/rolls on each chance to proc it. even with rppm attempting to equalize it. my opinion is buff the chance on critical melee swing to a certain point for 2h to proc it.
Because they changed how KM procs interacted with weapons. DW didn’t get any real interaction with this until Cataclysm when they added the ability for KM to proc off of offhand attacks.
2h hasn’t existed since WoD and they redesigned the spec specifically around dw for legion, so of course a 2h playstyle isn’t going to be as up to par without changes to it.
Are you still peddling this ridiculous crap? You are cherry picking one fight lol. This even after someone compared top logs for both subsets of Frost where 2h was still ahead of DW even into HFC.
No one cares how other classes were doing. These arguments deal with Frost Death Knight only, not other classes.
Again, we are talking about 2h and dw frost. You keep peddling this mystical DW was better than 2h nonsense, despite the fact that Blizzard actually had to bandaid DW talents to make them continuously competitive with 2h going into Cata.
You already lost, yet you keep ducking into other threads and moaning when someone points out you still not posting any evidence to back your arguments up.
Frost has always been viable in the right hands, whether it’s 2h or DW. You wouldn’t know because the only thing you posit are formulas and equations and you have literally never even played a dk at any level that’s worth anyone caring about.
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Well you said it yourself, the stars had to align for you to half a clothie. Against plate classes it was much worse. Competent players didn’t struggle against frost but it definitely was a pubstomper. With all this considered, it was balanced.
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Oh, how wrong you are. DW could always proc KM with the offhand, even before Cata. So you are wrong yet again. The change that happened in Cata was Unholy had a bug with Sudden Doom that allowed the offhand to proc it which wasnt intended.
And you are right, 2h existed before WoD, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what was posted. Might of the Frozen Wastes was Blizzards answer to these issues. It was actually introduced (without a playstyle focus and just increased melee damage by x% depending on talent rank) in Cata. It was then changed in MoP along with ToT, that gave each weapon a focus. There is no 2h specific playstyle unless you are trapped in this MoP/WoD era which was relatively bad for Frost as a whole due to the spec having to be balanced around it self as well as with others. Its why you see Frost being significantly behind (sometimes a little over 50% less dps) as other specs.
And you clearly do not understand what is being said if you think im harping on about a single fight. You said that DW was ALWAYS behind, yet it wasnt. And the post that you are referring too just gave a amount of parse comparison between 2h and DW, not actual numbers. You are just flat out wrong.
And yes, it does matter what dps figures other classes are doing. Its called balance, and if one class is doing 100 dps and Frost dk is doing 50 dps, then something isnt right. Apparently you have no idea how hard it was to balance Frost as a spec. If you buff Obliterate it would be buffed for both specs, so you couldnt really pump damage into it with Might of the Frozen Wastes buffing it for 2h which would make it hit way too hard in other aspects of the game. You couldnt pump it into Frost Strike because of the same reason. And if you buffed any of the other abilities DW just took advantage of it more so it stayed behind. It was a balance nightmare with it self and other specs. Sorry, but the logs show this when looking at Frost vs other specs. 50% less damage is HUGE.
DW was better on average than 2h. Sorry, but its true and Shadowlands is showing why.
Ive lost what exactly? I just see you saying I lost without actually showing it and at the same time providing evidence that you dont know what you are talking about in the slightest yet want to criticize me because “you havent played dk”. Which is even WORSE that someone who by your standards hasnt played yet knows more than you about the class.
And again, no Frost wasnt always viable. Again doing 50% less dps than other classes, or even Unholy, means its not viable to play. Could you play it? Sure and parses show people did, but others just have to make up for the dead weight you are bringing to the table.
Why do you feel the need to exaggerate so much and so blatantly. I will, and do, conceed the point that DW was usually better than 2h in pve (not so for pvp). But that was usually a difference of like 1-6%. 2h Frost was never 50% behind any dps unless there was a sigular moment in time when a specific class was pending a nerf.
Respectfully, it is almost impossible to take anything you say serious when your arguments fly so far off the rails and into the realm of hyperbole.
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Did I say 2h frost was? No I said Frost, as a whole, was behind by 50% in some fights and it was. The logs of WoD shows Unholy doing double of what Frost was doing on some fights. And Frost, as a whole, was tens of thousands behind on average the entire expansion of WoD. Where Frost, which was around 45k dps on average early on, was around 20k dps behind other classes which were doing around 65k. 20k per second is a lot. Thats 1.2m less damage per minute than other classes, thats a significant amount.
Go compare frost and other specs in WoD.
Oh okay, youre arguing that Unholy outperformed Frost in a specific fight. Check. Thats fair and to be expected. Certain toolkits are better for certain fights/situations.
Frankly, Frost, in general, has always been a pretty average dps spec. This is one of the main reasons why I get so confused with people who get so uber protective of its current state. The spec could use a rework, irrespective of DW or 2H preferences.
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There are plenty of ways to balance it without nerfing DW in the process, the question is are Blizz willing to invest the time. They can modify the numbers of 2h and DW’s Obliterate damage independently, which they couldn’t in the past due to how the math worked, so they can pump more damage into the 2h numbers if need be or pump more into the DW math if need be. 2h can have a way of applying Razorice without the runeforge, Glacial Advance being buffed around this would help a lot. Again they can tweak the math to lean it into 2h’s if they want. Killing Machine procs is a lot more complex, especially with the current way it procs. You could in theory introduce a passive similar to old MotFW that just increases Auto Attack crit chance by a flat amount when wielding a 2h vs a DW but that can only even things out so much with attack speed and all that. You could also however, buff Obliteration to work similarly to Gargoyle, RP spent increases Obliterate damage or even the crit multiplier if it’s really struggling, this along with a heavier Obliterate would do quite a bit to help. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’d help even things out a bit.
If I may respectfully ask, why do you continue posting? From an outsider perspective it only seems you’re posting to shut down any and all chance of 2h even remotely touching DW. It won’t, simply put if history is to show, especially considering the numbers out of alpha are showing Hysteria + Revendreth + Hypothermic is equaling out to 60-70 sec breathe timers. But why be so adamant that no change is worth doing because it wouldn’t even remotely help? Can you really blame anyone for thinking you just hate the idea of 2h Frost? If you’re truly worried that it’ll kill DW to buff 2h, it wouldn’t. The math today is different from the math 6 years ago.
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Right now, whether you like the playstyle or not, its performing relatively well. Probably the best since Wrath / Cata since they could focus on the spec, and not the spec + weapon balance.
With Blizzard looking for a 2020 launch for Shadowlands, and with them having a lot of work to do with Covenants and Soulbinds, the Legendary system, Torgast stuff, and now tier sets (if that announcement was true) dont be shocked if they just let Frost sit the way it is and if you want to pull good numbers then you should seek out 2 1h weapons.
People might not like it, but look at say BoS and how many people dont like that. There are other specs in a much worse state than Frost is in terms of function and DPS output. If DW is balanced with other specs then its a win for Blizzard. They want to do the least work possible and gain the most profits. Do you think any of these people that have been playing the game yet complaining about 2h not being there are going to quit the game now? Some might, but its highly unlikely. Some have even pre-ordered just because of the 2h announcement. So what does Blizzard really have to worry about?
Just because it’s certainly a possibility that 2h Frost will stay the way it is doesn’t mean people should let it. Same thing with swapping covenants. They’re are probably just as many people who preorder because they find the covenant system cool. So they want to do the least work possible and make the most profits, we’re expected to just let them get away with that? I don’t understand the argument here. Why is even remotely bringing up the idea of tweaking 2h to be better in line so pointless? Why should we just sit down and accept the slop when it seems, now more than ever in a long time, Blizzard is willing to listen and accept feedback? Why should we allow 2h to go live like this?
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