Thats your opinion, you have a right to it. I just disagree with you. Only time will tell whos right. So far, I like my chances. I personally dont see the sense of adding 2h back as an option only to ignore it.
But thats just me.
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And before you say something akin to “I’m just being realistic” there’s a fundamental difference between realism and out and out pessimism. Realism is knowing the Covenant abilities are no way going to be balanced. Pessimism is assuming they’re going to do nothing to fix that
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If you are just going to answer things before people post whats the point of replying to you?
If you know the covenant abilities arent going to be balanced, isnt that just being pessimistic, as in tending to see the worst aspect of things or believe the worst will happen. So if being realistic is that the worst will happen, as in they arent going to be balanced, its the same thing as being pessimistic. Just like you can be realistic about them not doing anything about it since they have a track record of doing just that.
Also the people that are worried about Covenants arent that they wont be balanced, its that if you have to change Covenants for any reason because of balance tweaks. They changed it a little bit in that it will only be hard to go back to a covenant that you left.
As Taelgaro said, being in Alpha, now is the time to give Bliz feedback, not just tell everyone how strongly you believe Bliz wont do anything to fix X issue.
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I don’t see covenants being unbalanced as “the worst aspect” happening. I see it as looking back at Blizzards past, looking at all the systems they’ve had and said “don’t worry we’ll balance it” and having it come out not balanced. I mean look at the entirety of BFA. Anyone who thinks it’ll be a “5%” difference is not being realistic. If I were being pessimistic I’d say something akin to “this covenant system is garbage and they should scrap it. No way they’ll get it to work”. I think they can get covenants in a working state, having the RPG elements mix with the gameplay elements, I just think they’ll have to do it in a different way than incentivising a lock in on one. Tl; Dr: it’s the difference between saying “they might not change 2h” and “they probably won’t change 2h”. And I think you’d be, frankly, disingenuous to say you’ve been doing up the former, seeing as how you’ve consistently shut down any possibility’s or suggestions for 2h buffs, bringing up the years of DW being better as reason enough. Even going so far as to say it couldn’t be transmoged because of animations, despite 2hs using the DW animations on alpha, and speeding up 2h autos wouldn’t even be remotely hard considering Icy Talons has been used on a 2h previously.
Again, if you’re so concerned buffing 2h will kill DW I assure you it wouldn’t, especially considering the Talent Tree and everything Frost has been for the past 6 years had been built around DW. Buffing the 2h specific numbers won’t hurt DW. Making GA have good synergy with 2h and allow them to apply Razorice wouldn’t hurt DW. Making Obliteration synergise better with a beefier 2h Obliterate wouldn’t hurt DW. The math of yesteryear isn’t the math of now. It can be changed and we should let them know how we think it can change for the better.
The feedback has been given, they know the issues. Why waste breath or typing out trying to bring back a split in the spec that brought the spec down overall in the first place?
Because thats not what “brought down the spec.” The spec has always had problems and still does. That has nothing to do with 2h versus DW. Legion removed 2h because every spec was being forced into a single weapon type. Period. Frost has had, and still has, many serious issue with the spec which have nothing to do with 2hers. The fact that Frost has been DW only for two entire expansions and still is not in a good spot should tell you that.
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Well, its either going to be balanced, or not balanced, so it not being balanced is the worst thing happening. Again, you can be realistic and still be a pessimist. Looking back at Blizzards past is exactly what I have done. So why is it good for you to do it, while at the same time saying I cant do it because you dont like how im doing it. Sorry but being in this case you saying its not going to be balance is being pessimistic. It doesnt matter if you dont think it is.
OTHER PEOPLE SAID NO TO TRANSMOG… ffs this is really getting annoying. They dont want a fast swinging 2h weapon. Transmog could work going from DW to a 2h weapon, it would work off of a 2.6 second swing timer instead of a 3.6 swing timer. That is what everyone had a problem with yet you just completely ignored that fact. Why are you even bringing up faster 2h autos?
Just because the Artifact weapon system happened at the same time does not mean that is the reason that that thing was removed. Correlation does not equal causation. It was an absolute nightmare to balance because not only did it have to be balance with other specs, it had to be balanced with itself.
Yeah, I dont want a transmog. Its too late for that 2H is back in now. Just get it to a reasonably competitive spot as compared to DW and I am good.
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Okay, let me say it this way, the preponderance of evidence (the fact that a number of classes had their alternate weapon choices removed, many of which has zero balance problems) strongly indicates that 2H was removed to accommodate the introduction of artifact weapons - not out of a concern for balancing.
Edit: Also evidenced by the million buffs DW Frost got just prior to Legion.
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**[Patch 4.2.0](https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_4.2.0) (2011-06-28):** Can now properly be triggered from off-hand attacks as well as main-hand attacks.
What are you even talking about? 2h was great in Wrath and Cata too. You again, don’t even play DK if you think 2h was limited in what it could do to WoD.
Lol what? I never said DW was always behind. I said over the game’s lifespan they’ve jostled as the top sub-style of Frost. And no, he picked top parses for Frost and broke them down by playstyle. Stop misconstruing people’s words.
You’re looking at the top tier of top tier players. Frost has always been viable regardless of 2h or dw playstyle in the right hands. Not everyone was parsing in top tier mythic raids and unless your guild was min/maxing, most people didn’t care what you played.
You’ve yet to post logs showing said “average”. You keep talking about it but six threads later you’re nowhere to be seen with it. Also, omg a spec that got completely redesigned around one playstyle isn’t being balanced yet for other playstyles? color me shocked.
Then show your parses kid. Show anything you’ve done that tells anyone arguing with you that you know anything about DK, other than you regurgitating crap from WoWhead comments and Youtubers. You don’t do LFR, you have clearly never raided, you don’t PvP. The only thing you apparently do is world quest and sit on the forums 24/7.
I was outdpsing Unholy DKs playing 2h Frost in Highmaul, in BRF, and in HFC before switching over to dw for the latter half of WoD. I played both 2h blood dps, 2h frost/dw frost, and unholy dps and tank in Wrath, I played 2h frost, Blood, and unholy in Cata and MoP.
You are arguing strawmen and telling us to “look at the evidence” and you don’t post anything but regurgitated nonsense. So shush.
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There were balance problems though. Single Minded Fury, balance problems, Frost balance problems, Gladiator Stance balance problems and so on and so on. If there was a split in the playstyle it was accompanied with a balance problem.
Did they buff MotFW a lot? I can go look at the change logs to see if that “million bufs to DW frost” is actually true since that is the only thing that was a direct buff to DW.
It not being balanced is far from the worst thing happening. It could be they ultimately decided to not allow you to change covenants period. That’s the worst possibility. I’m not saying you can’t do it, I’m just saying it’s no way shape or form helpful or productive. All you’ve done is deny feedback being viable while offering no other solution than nerfing DW. I’m not going into covenant forums just saying “it’s not gonna be balanced don’t bother trying to invest in the system”. I’m letting the people who are thinking of ways of improving that system brainstorm and give feedback.
You’re moving the goalpost. You said it wasn’t possible to transmog originally, due to animations https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/we-did-it-2h-frost/488474/585?u=taelgaro-stormrage.
But you’re right people don’t a fast 2h. They want a slow hard hitting one. And that can be done without nerfing DW. Passive to add bonus crit chance to autos when using a 2h, making it closer to 80-40/50 instead of 80-20. Done. Bigger buffs to the 2h side of the Obliterate equation. Done. Buffing GA to allow for Razorice application, or just a general tweaking of that talent in general cause its garbage. Maybe add synergy to 2h in the equation, bonus crit damage or something. Done. Buff to Obliteration to further work with the heavier 2h Obliterate math, maybe taking notes from Gargoyle. Done. And nothing about DW was directly nerfed in the process. In fact it’ll probably still parse better. People get there big 2hs for all 3 specs and that feeling they want, and the DWs still get to smack stuff faster for more overall dps.
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So its either balanced or not right? So how is that not the worst outcome of what can happen? Either its balanced or it isnt.
I also dont have to offer another solution than to nerf DW. Its the best possible solution because it actually addresses the issue instead of trying to skirt around it which is what MotFW was doing.
And im not saying dont bother trying to balance Frost, calling out a bad idea is exactly that, calling out a bad idea.
I also did not say it wasnt possible, I said it can prevent it due to animations. You can get a 2h right now and transmog the artifacts to it, yet the animations just do not work. The faster animations was a prevention of people wanting that, that is not saying it wasnt possible.
These people can also go to another class that has this playstyle if they want that playstyle… right? Just like if I want an army based caster, I can go play Demo, or if I want another type of playstyle I can go find that somewhere else. You cant have the same spec do everything, it causes problems.
It can come out unbalanced but you can swap to the more powerful option if you committed to the weaker one early. Or it can come out unbalanced and you have no way of switching so if you committed to the weak one early, tough. One is worse than the other would you agree?
I’m not suggesting bringing back MotFW as it was. It’s not needed. Obliterate has 2 equations one for DW damage one for 2h damage. Increase the 2h one. If you need to buff DW up a bit you can without directly buffing 2h. Done.
Killing Machine procs are a problem that isn’t being skirted around by adding a passive + to crit chance for 2 handed. It’s normalizing them without making them the same. Add this and what was a 80-20 becomes magically a 80-40/50 (an ideal sweetspot imo). Then you let the heavier damage in the 2h equation make up for the lacking 30/40 procs. Will it be as good as DW? No. But it’ll be closer. If they could add MotFW in the past, they can add a basic Crit Chance buff and number increase. They actually should change GA, not even could, that talent has been so trash for a while now. What about any of these ideas is bad? I’m not advocating for 2h to replace DW or even be equal to DW, I just want it closer while remaining unique.
“Just play another class” is such a cop out. I could say the same thing about Feral at current. It’s doing nothing but “skirting around the issue” as you put it.
You don’t have to nerf DW to buff 2h. Simple. If any of these ideas are bad give me a reason.
If its unbalanced its unbalanced.
Again, crit is NOT the issue, its the shear number of chances.
Do they have 2 different equations? Looks like they want to keep it at the same attack power % no matter the weapon for easy balance.
Nerfing DW is not a buff to 2h, I dont know why you keep doing this. A nerf to DW is a nerf to DW. To bring them in line so the issue doesnt exist anymore. The buff would come after the nerf to both weapons by increasing the ppm to compensate for the loss of the offhand proc.
I seriously don’t understand why people don’t address what is actually going on.
And it can be unbalanced with the option to change if you picked the weaker option or unbalanced with no option to change. You didn’t answer the question. One is worse than the other right? If that were to be true than them simply being unbalanced isn’t the worst possible option.
Right. If you can’t equalize the number of chances, than you equalize each chance’s probability. 2h would have less chances but a higher probability per chance. DW can have more chances but a lower probability per chance. This in a way equalizes them. How is this not solving the issue of uneven procs?
They do, the old Obliterate equation was a raw 215% of weapon damage. The equation is now split between 2h (80% of attack power) and DW (60% main hand + 60% offhand). It’s looking that way yes, but we’re not arguing about how it looks at current we’re arguing whether it could or couldn’t be changed in the future. What reason is there to believe they can’t change the 80% to 100% or 120% while leaving the two 60%s the same?
You don’t need to nerf DW to bring them in line. That’s my point. You can do so much more while allowing DW to stay the same. I don’t even want them in line. I just want 2h to be better and more unique than at current. Why is a nerf to DW the only way to solve these issues?
What aren’t we addressing? KM procs have been addressed. Runeforges, particularly Razorice being so vital, has been addressed. The need to nerf DW to keep in line with 2h has been addressed. What am I missing?
My condolences to you. Arguing with Kelliste is like arguing with a corpse. You won’t get a straight answer, just non-sequiturs and goal post moving.
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What can I say, Quarantine got me all kinds of messed up lol.
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