So if they increase the proc rate to ensure 2H is at least hitting the threshold, there, in theory, should be no difference in the long run, correct?
That’s the current hypothesis yes
If it’s been normalized then why does DW have around 4 times the proc rate. Being a little over 7 a minute for DW and just under 2 for 2h. You have a proc chance per crit, and you have to get that proc chance somehow.
I don’t think the formula that goes into this is simple, and I think there is a lot more to it than what we have been discussing. I also think that it is still just math and there are ways that the people who code this can simply model different scenarios and adjust it accordingly.
I think Blizzard definitely has the chops to balance it, and I also believe they now have the intent to make 2H work.
It would be fun to see the actual calculation that goes into a single hit to determine whether or not KM will proc though.
We can consider an example to see this in practice. Let’s consider 20% and 0% haste (everything scales the same with haste here so it’s not part of the equations).
2H gets 0.2 x 60 / 3.6 = 3.3 crits per 0% haste minute. The RPPM is 4.5 x 1.2 = 5.4 per minute. Even if you’d proc on every single crit, you wouldn’t reach the RPPM. In reality, the proc chance isn’t 100% on the crits either. You sometimes get the crits right after eachother so the RPPM mechanic doesn’t have time to built up the proc chance.
What happens is that you get even less proc than the number of crits you have so the proc rate of KM becomes really low
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It’s all about rolls and chances. First the auto has to crit, so it rolls on that, say it’s 30% crit, so that means it will roll and if it’s within a certain value then it crits and if not then it doesn’t, then if it’s a crit, it then rolls again which is where the proc chance comes into play. If it then rolls a certain value it’s a KM proc, if not then it’s not. Everything has a chance to proc and this is how the system knows if something will proc or not.
There are different types of different types of procs, proc % + icd mwhich it has a proc chance and after it procs an internal cooldown is activated and the proc cannot happen until the cooldown is finished.
PPM, when ppm is being talked about, it’s converted into a proc chance for any given hit to proc. Haste does not increase this chance, however haste among with other things can give you more chances to proc it.
RPPM is a formula that is supposed to proc the correct number of times regardless of the number of events. The example given was an affliction lock having 10 corruptions on different enemies will proc the same number of elemental force procs as an arms warrior auto-attacking.
This is not what is seen between 2h vs DW when it comes to proccing KM. It falls under the PPM category. If KM now has a PPM of 4.5 then it’s a 27% chance on crit to proc KM. DW only has a 19.5% chance of proccing KM per crit. It just has a lot more chances to crit which means it has more chances to proc KM.
So, what does the formula look like?
what are all the variables to a single auto hit KM proc?
- MH hit chance
- OH hit chance (obviously only for DW)
- Crit chance (is this the same for OH?)
- KM proc percent (is this the same for OH?)
Does the weapon hit, does it crit, then does the KM proc happen. Is there anything else that would go into a single auto hit proccing KM?
Its really simple, does the auto crit? If yes then it asks if KM procs, if yes then you get a proc. It doesn’t matter if it’s 2h, it doesn’t matter if it’s MH or OH. It’s a % per crit.
RPPM has unlucky streak protection in it so you WILL get those procs per minute.
PPM = proc chance
RPPM = guaranteed procs no matter what.
RPPM has things in it like last time since last proc attempt, unlucky streak prevention variable, a set time since last proc for entering combat which is why trinkets usually trigger on the start of a fight. It’s certainly not RPPM for KM procs.
It’s a chance, on a chance. If you just simply increase the amount of chances that you have to proc it, like with crit and haste, then you will see more procs. 2h just simple has less chances. Less chances to crit, less chances for those crits to proc KM, and the reason why they changed it to be based off of crits is double procs, or in same cases triple procs. This means that you could get a proc, not be able to use it, get a proc again, not be able to use it and then get another proc. With DW you basically had a chance to proc KM every 1.3 sec before things like icy talons or any haste.
This is the exact reason why DW works so well with frost along with 2 runeforges. And now that the ability damage has been normalized, the solution isn’t just as simple as recognizing the issue. They would have to nerf DW which has worked this way for frost since ever to get some balance. Then it would just be a 19.5% chance on main hand crit. But again that is taking away what DW has always done.
Both of these two are designed to make things the same across weapons and normalize across things like crit percentage.
PPM is just a way to adjust proc chance for weapon speed. So the proc chance is already different between weapons.
So, I don’t think they are the issue.
The issue is twice as many hits. The easiest solution to this in my opinion would be to remove the OH proc chance, that way, PPM and RPPM can do their thing equally across both.
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It’s code with some values. Changing three parameters isn’t exactly complicated. You make it sound like it’s an impossible task when in reality for those of use that write software for a living know it’s pretty straight forward change - the hard part is simulating what values should be used to get the balance needed.
I imagine they want to collect as many hours of data before making a tuning pass to get it as close as possible. Adjusting abilities via changes to code isn’t rocket science. As mentioned the challenge is the balance component which comes from running the simulations and this has to be done against all the other specs in the game.
Rather than allowing two runes on a single weapon I suspect it will be easier for them to add some 2H rune combinations or simply add a 2H passive to Frost - those templates already exist so again it’s not a complex task.
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Per 1h vs 2h it’s supposed to normalize, but you have an whole other source for procs in the off-hand. RPPM is usually reserved for trinkets and such.
My thoughts exactly.
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It is impossible without splitting the calculation to be exclusive to weapon sets. ppm is really the only thing that can be changed and it effects both weapons. Increase this to say 6 or 7 then you just buff up the other. It’s the same thing that happened in MoP and WoD, if you buffed any ability outside of MotFW or ToT then it was a buff or nerf to both weapon sets.
Each value is a constant, base weapon speed is a constant to that particular type of weapon. 60 is just the amount of seconds in a minute, ppm is for both weapon sets.
And if these things are just so simple why weren’t they don’t in the first place than creating MotFW? The only thing that is really simple without nerfing something that is an intended mechanic, is creating runeforges.
We may very well see MoTFW return…who knows.
What I am getting at is the problems are not that complicated to comprehend. There a multiple ways to balance Runes and the Killing Machine situation.
To think it isn’t going to get resolved is negative thinking. The Alpha is typically to test stuff works more than anything else. Even if they did bring back MoTFW that to me anyway wouldn’t constitute a major class redesign. That said I doubt we will see major talent tree changes at this point because any time will be spent on this 2H situation.
Blizzard will be aware of the issues it’s the #1 discussion point for Frost on every forum.
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Well 2h does work. Just like inexorable assault works, icy talons works, yet both aren’t even taken because cold heart just delivers more damage. So I don’t really see why people think 2h is some exception to this. There are clear winners in performance.
Unless they want to nerf DW in limiting km to proc off of the main hand only, which has been a main mechanic of DW, I don’t really see them doing much of anything. People got 2h back and I’m inclined to say deal with it like people said they would months ago.
We didn’t get 2H back if they are not usable in end game content that is the main point I guess.
Not sure anyone expects perfect balance but it should be close enough that either option can be competitive. Anything less and Blizzard have just wasted their time - they will be aware of this (how could they not be).
Its alpha and we don’t usually see a numbers pass for sometime yet. Who really knows which talents are going to be cookie cutter in Shadowlands.
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The issue isn’t numbers tuning, it’s mechanics tuning. This whole “its alpha” mentality isnt healthy.
Maybe so, but its the reality we are now in. The Alpha is well underway so anything changing is going to come near the end of Alpha or in the Beta at this point.
The more and more I think about it we are probably looking at a band-aid passive like MoTFW make a last minute return (every post in Alpha relating to Frost is raising the same issues). Its quick and easy to implement and it will get Blizzard around the fact the talent tree isn’t well positioned for 2H weapons and 2H cannot have multiple runes equipped.
Lets not beat around the bush though its a blunt measure to solve a problem they should have thought about before agreeing to bring back 2H weapons.
It’s an issue that people shouldn’t have ignored when asking for 2h back instead of saying who cares and screaming my aesthetics. Blizzard gave people exactly what they were asking for. 2h back, and a buff to obliterate.
From my memory the general consensus was that players accepted balance would never be perfect but both options should be close enough to be competitive. Right now DW and 2H might as well be leagues apart…close is within a couple of % points.
Alpha feedback is covering the issues and if anyone at Blizzard has read the posts they will be 100% aware of the three core issues. At this point its a wait and see as to what they are going to do about it.
I will also go back to the point that if Blizzard had no intention of 2H being a viable or competitive choice then they would have just added 2H as a transmog option. As much as we love and hate Blizzard the developers are not idiots.
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