All great points. I feel the easiest path would be to simply add a 2h-only runeforge which combines Razorice and FC, then balance KM, and any other talent, so that the proc rates between DW and 2H match. Once that is done, the DPS between the two specs would, essentially, be identical.
With all that said, just generally speaking toward the Frost spec, irrespective of ones weapon, I would like the ability to pump up the damage of Obliterate as much as possible to make that the primary source of damage. I didn’t roll Frost with the expectation of killing via DoTs or consistent DPS. I want burst DPS gameplay. If I wanted to win via DoTs, I would have rolled an unholy.
BoS should be the talent of choice for those looking for consistent DPS - Obliteration should be the talent of choice for those looking for a more Obliterate focused style.
Transmog into other weapons has limitations with animations. Like going from 2h to the artifact swords, and this rune has only ever been broken for artifacts.
They have also stated that there wouldn’t be any major changes to the specs for the most part. The spec split brought the spec down since the 2 playstyles were always fighting against each other, only when they focused on one did things start to look up in balance with the other classes, to they just ignored one like 2h in wrath and balanced it around DW.
Even right now obliterate is not low down in terms of damage output. It like the third ability only after a corruption and breath of sindragosa. Frost strike is lower down due to runic going to breath. Obliterate has been buffed and made to scale with mastery. The KM procs along with razorice issue has been in since Wrath and they still haven’t dont anything to actually address it aside from a band-aid with MotFW.
There would be so much actual work involved that it would probably be better to build a new spec from the ground up. Things you would have to address, km procs, razorice, runic attenuation, frozen pulse and anything else based off of attack speed.
Unless they nerf DW there is basically nothing they can do for balance with KM procs. They can’t toy with the ppm otherwise DW will increase as well, they would have to create so much just for 2h to be competitive just make a new spec at that point.
On the topic of runeforges, not sure why Razor Ice isn’t just a passive at this point. Assuming we would get two runeforges for two handers (Across all specs, cause they ALL should be able to go DW or 2H IMO, we ARE a hero class after all.) you’re never NOT gonna use Razor Ice.
It would just be an additional limiter along side Fallen Crusader as your two “go to” rune forges, whereas the other two specs (Again, assuming they rightfully would get the same runeforge treatment.) would only have one in Fallen Crusader.
As far as the other issues, I can’t see Blizzard just leaving it as is, that would be super lazy, but also I would love to see some more options that are more “in our hands” so to speak and not entirely based off of auto-attacks. Talents like Permafrost are sooooooo boring.
There is still DW having 2 runeforges. Its nothing real interesting, I agree, but if you bake something in then it just becomes what’s the next best choice and 2h wouldn’t have access to that one.
Frost is frost though, as it should be. Pick a playstyle for the entire thing and run with it.
If they could tackle the big two it would go a very long way.
Razorice
KM Procs
They could just add a generic passive into the spec that activates when a 2H weapon is being used. It could simply provide the benefits of Razorice and improve the KM proc rate. No need to get all fancy with a 2H rune system.
DW would probably still sim a fraction higher but it would be much closer than it is now. That would be a decent band-aid until a time when they can look at 2H Frost in more detail.
They could also adjust/ change the talent tree ability Obliteration to you know actually make Obliterate deal a higher % of the total damage output. That would hardly be considered a major class change.
Those things would IMO be a great compromise and get us into the ballpark without having to overhaul Frost which they obviously won’t do.
I never really understood this going forward into Shadowlands. A lot of folks seem to think that 2h and DW will be, should or need to be two distinct play styles. It’s a different game than it was in WoD and back, I am pretty sure the play style of Frost is gonna remain the same, you’re just using a 2h or Dw. That’s it. As far as internal numbers are concerned, that’s a hurdle to be leaped, which I feel they will once they do a numbers pass in the alpha (which clearly hasn’t been done yet.)
2h already has a higher chance per auto to proc km. Its just that it’s based on auto crits now which really shows the disparity. It’s about 25% of DW KM procs or 2 per minute. If it was just that easy wouldn’t you think they would have fixed all this stuff in Cata instead of just creating MotFW?
The runeforge is easy, but that was when there was only 2 runeforges to worry about. Now DW will have many more combinations that can happen, razorice and the spell damage reduction one, or whichever. That’s a crazy amount of combinations just to accommodate 2h.
Like I said this spec hasn’t really been designed for both weapons to exist in harmony, at least not anymore. They didn’t even try to address 2h frost in wrath, they just balanced the spec with others and if you didn’t use the best option then it’s on you.
I think we all know they are not going to redesign Frost between now and SL release. However, its also totally reasonable to expect them to get the two weapon opens relatively close to each other in terms of DPS output - otherwise what was the point of the exercise (Blizzard are not stupid)?
What kind of band-aid they use we will have to wait and see but its pretty obvious where their attention needs to be directed initially. At this point you are either a glass half full or empty type of person and its pretty clear there isn’t much water left in your glass haha.
Frost doesn’t have to be redesigned to allow the old 2h playstyle. Just make a talent or honor talent that increases obliterate/frostscythe damage but also increases their rune cost by one.
Obliterate has been buffed, and they don’t have to apply a band-aid at all. As long as something in the spec does good numbers then they can consider it balanced.
They have already had talents that were dps losses, azerite traits that were dps losses, so a weapon being a dps loss is not outside the realm of possibility. Like I said, they could want DW to remain the dominant choice.
It was perposed for blizzard to bake RI into the mastery. So not only does the mastery increase frost damage but then apples the RI debuff to the target. But people shouted that down fast saying that it shouldn’t be done that way.
So we bake RI into mastery so it does both frost damage increase and apalys the debuff. Then you allow 2h frost to apply 2 runes. And that fixes the issue with rune forges. Next for KM procs you increase the rate for 2h users. So that fixes that issue.
So now for this You make the talient obliteration change how frost spec works. Unstead of having km make obliterate do frost damage you make it have 100% crit chance while increasing the damage and crit damage of obliterate. You also make frost strike do some frost damage but also do regular weapon damage so it hits harder.
And I will say this to everyone I love dks, I also love paladins. There are paladins that want a dw ret spec. And their forums are a lot more toxic than some of these have become so with that being said if blizz ever adds dw to ret without it being its own spec then it will be time to pop some popcorn and watch the show.
And for those blood and unholy that will say we want put 2 runes on our weapons. Let blizzard give u dw for an expansion. And then you can have it.
I’m not sure about the double runeforging. Now you’re opening the door to allow folks to have double enchants on 2 handers. Unfortunately, the reality is people wanted 2 hand frost thus blizzard gave it to you, they never said it was going to optimal though. I will agree that obliterates and frost strikes should feel meatier with a 2 hander but double runeforging is a stretch
You can’t just open up 2 runeforges on a single weapon due to how the enchanting system works. It has restrictions, that’s why the combination comes up.
As for km procs, how do you just increase its proc rate? You can’t mess with the ppm in the ability because that just increases chance per auto for DW as well. Or do you expect Blizzard to just keep making passive sand so on to make 2h work?
KM is one calculation that takes into account the base weapon speed before haste to give a chance per auto, but in this case it’s per auto crit. Less autos means less crit chances which means less procs. It doesn’t work the same way it used to.
Having obliterate do frost damage is also the better option since it will do its full damage. If obliteration instead changes that then you also have to fight against armor reducing its damage. Like I said before, even if you increased its damage to 200% attack power it would act like its only doing around 110% due to armor. It’s been doubled, which people were happy for but now it’s not enough?
People thought that obliterate also did more damage with 2h but they didn’t even bother with the math to see what was going on with it which the formula showed it was the same amount as DW.
It’s really not just as simple as “you just do this” and the only real option is to nerf DW down to the level of 2h and if they don’t want to do that then 2h will most likely just be some option you can take outside of pushing content, where dps doesn’t matter, which a lot of people did they they were fine with.
well the only reason for that is due to dw getting two runes vs 2h getting one. Blizzard could balance the like how they have with fury and arms. Fury dw and gets 2 weapon enchants while arms only gets one. I know different specs but still kind of the same thing.
Point is thats why I said 2 runes for 2h in frost.
I am not a master programmer hell the most programming experience i have was the one class in highschool. It could be done with if than statement. So if 2h is used it increases the proc rate by a %. If dw it stays at the predetermined rate it is.
So i know another eall of text is coming to say how I am wrong but it can be done. And again for 2h make it so only 2h frost can have 2 runes. Not a enchant and rune just runes.
You cant do it within KM itself. The formula has ppm, base weapon speed (which determines if its 1h or 2h) and 60 seconds. This results in a proc chance per crit, 2h technically already has a higher proc chance, its just the shear number of chances that DW has over 2h. Bringing up 2h is much more involved than limiting DW to only proc off of 1h, but I highly doubt that they will nerf what has been the focus for so long and has worked this way since wrath, to prop up something that just doesnt work well with how the spec is designed.
I mean they did absolutely nothing for 2h in wrath and had to create MotFW in Cata to try to prop it up. What people are essentially doing is asking blizzard to change the spec because “i pay for the game” and I should get what I want.
All you really have to do is make 2h Only rune forges which are combinations of the others. So, in effect, a 2h Frost can put a single rune on their weapon which provides the same effects as if they put both RI and FC on one weapon.
That is why you bake RI in to the mastry and allow 2h frost to use 2 runes. With RI in mastery we can play around with the different runes.
Again the good old if than statement can be used as i had said above if the person is using a 2h weapon you can increase the proc chance or till it matchs what could be done by dw. It can be done and is being done. I am wondering how monks are doinf now that they can dw or 2h if they have the same issue of procs.
And again, how do you increase the proc chance? There are 3 things in the formula for proc chance per hit. Only one part of it is exclusive to 2h.
Is it being done? I see them working on covenants, and just bringing back some abilities for flavor. Thats really what this expansion is, flavor.
Again, there is no way to increase the proc chance unless you change how the proc chances are calculated. 2h already has close to a 30% chance per crit, as long as the ppm hasnt changed, while DW has around a 22% chance per crit. So there isnt a way to change this in that formula. If you increase the ppm you just buff DW as well. This is exactly why they decided to focus on 1 weapon set in the first place.
And 2 runeforges means changing how the enchanting system works which could mean that all 2h would then have 2 enchants on them. Its why the combination is suggested so it doesnt have any chance of impacting any other class or spec. You can see this in other games where all 2h weapons have 2 upgrade slots or can house 2 enchants. GW2 has 2 upgrade slots while 1h weapons each have 1. So you can get say 5% damage increase and 7% crit or whatever they are. Havent been on it in a while to remember.
If they have to then combine runeforges then they have to combine each and every possible combination because that is what DW has access to.
This isnt just some quick and easy thing, if it was it would have been done in Cata.