Just because the Artifact weapon system happened at the same time does not mean that is the reason that that thing was removed. Correlation does not equal causation. It was an absolute nightmare to balance because not only did it have to be balance with other specs, it had to be balanced with itself.
Yeah, I dont want a transmog. Its too late for that 2H is back in now. Just get it to a reasonably competitive spot as compared to DW and I am good.
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Okay, let me say it this way, the preponderance of evidence (the fact that a number of classes had their alternate weapon choices removed, many of which has zero balance problems) strongly indicates that 2H was removed to accommodate the introduction of artifact weapons - not out of a concern for balancing.
Edit: Also evidenced by the million buffs DW Frost got just prior to Legion.
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**[Patch 4.2.0](https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_4.2.0) (2011-06-28):** Can now properly be triggered from off-hand attacks as well as main-hand attacks.
What are you even talking about? 2h was great in Wrath and Cata too. You again, don’t even play DK if you think 2h was limited in what it could do to WoD.
Lol what? I never said DW was always behind. I said over the game’s lifespan they’ve jostled as the top sub-style of Frost. And no, he picked top parses for Frost and broke them down by playstyle. Stop misconstruing people’s words.
You’re looking at the top tier of top tier players. Frost has always been viable regardless of 2h or dw playstyle in the right hands. Not everyone was parsing in top tier mythic raids and unless your guild was min/maxing, most people didn’t care what you played.
You’ve yet to post logs showing said “average”. You keep talking about it but six threads later you’re nowhere to be seen with it. Also, omg a spec that got completely redesigned around one playstyle isn’t being balanced yet for other playstyles? color me shocked.
Then show your parses kid. Show anything you’ve done that tells anyone arguing with you that you know anything about DK, other than you regurgitating crap from WoWhead comments and Youtubers. You don’t do LFR, you have clearly never raided, you don’t PvP. The only thing you apparently do is world quest and sit on the forums 24/7.
I was outdpsing Unholy DKs playing 2h Frost in Highmaul, in BRF, and in HFC before switching over to dw for the latter half of WoD. I played both 2h blood dps, 2h frost/dw frost, and unholy dps and tank in Wrath, I played 2h frost, Blood, and unholy in Cata and MoP.
You are arguing strawmen and telling us to “look at the evidence” and you don’t post anything but regurgitated nonsense. So shush.
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There were balance problems though. Single Minded Fury, balance problems, Frost balance problems, Gladiator Stance balance problems and so on and so on. If there was a split in the playstyle it was accompanied with a balance problem.
Did they buff MotFW a lot? I can go look at the change logs to see if that “million bufs to DW frost” is actually true since that is the only thing that was a direct buff to DW.
It not being balanced is far from the worst thing happening. It could be they ultimately decided to not allow you to change covenants period. That’s the worst possibility. I’m not saying you can’t do it, I’m just saying it’s no way shape or form helpful or productive. All you’ve done is deny feedback being viable while offering no other solution than nerfing DW. I’m not going into covenant forums just saying “it’s not gonna be balanced don’t bother trying to invest in the system”. I’m letting the people who are thinking of ways of improving that system brainstorm and give feedback.
You’re moving the goalpost. You said it wasn’t possible to transmog originally, due to animations https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/we-did-it-2h-frost/488474/585?u=taelgaro-stormrage.
But you’re right people don’t a fast 2h. They want a slow hard hitting one. And that can be done without nerfing DW. Passive to add bonus crit chance to autos when using a 2h, making it closer to 80-40/50 instead of 80-20. Done. Bigger buffs to the 2h side of the Obliterate equation. Done. Buffing GA to allow for Razorice application, or just a general tweaking of that talent in general cause its garbage. Maybe add synergy to 2h in the equation, bonus crit damage or something. Done. Buff to Obliteration to further work with the heavier 2h Obliterate math, maybe taking notes from Gargoyle. Done. And nothing about DW was directly nerfed in the process. In fact it’ll probably still parse better. People get there big 2hs for all 3 specs and that feeling they want, and the DWs still get to smack stuff faster for more overall dps.
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So its either balanced or not right? So how is that not the worst outcome of what can happen? Either its balanced or it isnt.
I also dont have to offer another solution than to nerf DW. Its the best possible solution because it actually addresses the issue instead of trying to skirt around it which is what MotFW was doing.
And im not saying dont bother trying to balance Frost, calling out a bad idea is exactly that, calling out a bad idea.
I also did not say it wasnt possible, I said it can prevent it due to animations. You can get a 2h right now and transmog the artifacts to it, yet the animations just do not work. The faster animations was a prevention of people wanting that, that is not saying it wasnt possible.
These people can also go to another class that has this playstyle if they want that playstyle… right? Just like if I want an army based caster, I can go play Demo, or if I want another type of playstyle I can go find that somewhere else. You cant have the same spec do everything, it causes problems.
It can come out unbalanced but you can swap to the more powerful option if you committed to the weaker one early. Or it can come out unbalanced and you have no way of switching so if you committed to the weak one early, tough. One is worse than the other would you agree?
I’m not suggesting bringing back MotFW as it was. It’s not needed. Obliterate has 2 equations one for DW damage one for 2h damage. Increase the 2h one. If you need to buff DW up a bit you can without directly buffing 2h. Done.
Killing Machine procs are a problem that isn’t being skirted around by adding a passive + to crit chance for 2 handed. It’s normalizing them without making them the same. Add this and what was a 80-20 becomes magically a 80-40/50 (an ideal sweetspot imo). Then you let the heavier damage in the 2h equation make up for the lacking 30/40 procs. Will it be as good as DW? No. But it’ll be closer. If they could add MotFW in the past, they can add a basic Crit Chance buff and number increase. They actually should change GA, not even could, that talent has been so trash for a while now. What about any of these ideas is bad? I’m not advocating for 2h to replace DW or even be equal to DW, I just want it closer while remaining unique.
“Just play another class” is such a cop out. I could say the same thing about Feral at current. It’s doing nothing but “skirting around the issue” as you put it.
You don’t have to nerf DW to buff 2h. Simple. If any of these ideas are bad give me a reason.
If its unbalanced its unbalanced.
Again, crit is NOT the issue, its the shear number of chances.
Do they have 2 different equations? Looks like they want to keep it at the same attack power % no matter the weapon for easy balance.
Nerfing DW is not a buff to 2h, I dont know why you keep doing this. A nerf to DW is a nerf to DW. To bring them in line so the issue doesnt exist anymore. The buff would come after the nerf to both weapons by increasing the ppm to compensate for the loss of the offhand proc.
I seriously don’t understand why people don’t address what is actually going on.
And it can be unbalanced with the option to change if you picked the weaker option or unbalanced with no option to change. You didn’t answer the question. One is worse than the other right? If that were to be true than them simply being unbalanced isn’t the worst possible option.
Right. If you can’t equalize the number of chances, than you equalize each chance’s probability. 2h would have less chances but a higher probability per chance. DW can have more chances but a lower probability per chance. This in a way equalizes them. How is this not solving the issue of uneven procs?
They do, the old Obliterate equation was a raw 215% of weapon damage. The equation is now split between 2h (80% of attack power) and DW (60% main hand + 60% offhand). It’s looking that way yes, but we’re not arguing about how it looks at current we’re arguing whether it could or couldn’t be changed in the future. What reason is there to believe they can’t change the 80% to 100% or 120% while leaving the two 60%s the same?
You don’t need to nerf DW to bring them in line. That’s my point. You can do so much more while allowing DW to stay the same. I don’t even want them in line. I just want 2h to be better and more unique than at current. Why is a nerf to DW the only way to solve these issues?
What aren’t we addressing? KM procs have been addressed. Runeforges, particularly Razorice being so vital, has been addressed. The need to nerf DW to keep in line with 2h has been addressed. What am I missing?
My condolences to you. Arguing with Kelliste is like arguing with a corpse. You won’t get a straight answer, just non-sequiturs and goal post moving.
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What can I say, Quarantine got me all kinds of messed up lol.
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Well again I have said I am no programmer. Infact I had one class of it and that was it. But we were taught about if than statements and true false statements. She had said that the km equasion could not be split up or altered to increase the procs 2h get that they would have to redo all the math they have in it. But when asked provided no proof.
Now to me looking at the simplest way to normalize KM procs would be to increase the chance rate of 2h km procs using one of those two statements or both. The point is it can be done but again having someone shout it down that it cant be done is happening. Being someone that is actuly trying to have a conversation.
I applaud this and want to contiune by trying to further this by asking. if they increased the KM proc chances(even though oblit will be doing frost damage with km procs). And (I know I have said this so many times I feel like a broken record) if they put the RI into mastery that way mastery increases the frost damage as it does now and (puts a stacking buff on us that cant be dispelled or stolen that says increases frost damage done to target by 3%) I know this changes RI but it makes it so the debuff isn’t on a target that dies and can be carried over so we do not have to build it up again. Then you allow 2h frost to stack 2 runes on our 2h weapon. This way we can experiment with the new runes. We keep the same amount of runes as dw and we aren’t forced into RI.
This would give us more choices. Now what I am wondering is about Obliterates damage with a 2h weapon when km procs. As it will be frost damage. Compaired to it being physical damage. With it scaling off of 2h weapons what will the damage look like.
With increasing the crit chance you slightly increase the chance to be able to roll. Of corse if you have 5% crit chance it’s not even remotely going to do anything. You want as many chances as possible. Say they changed it back to auto attacks and not auto crits. 2h has a chance with no haste every 3.6 seconds while DW has it every 1.3 seconds due to the offhand. Now that crit is in the equation it just makes this gap even more noticeable. Even if you did increase the crit chance on a low attack speed weapon it wouldn’t do much because the speed still isn’t there.
If they are different then 2h obliterate is worse than DW 80% is not 120% which is what 60+60 is. You start getting into so many other issues, just bring back Cata MotFW if you don’t want to have the gap as big. It’s an easier solution than trying to split the weapons yet again.
And I answered your question. Unbalanced is unbalanced. If it’s always going to be unbalanced as you put it, then changing what is better is still unbalanced. If it doesn’t change it’s still unbalanced. It’s no worse, it’s all the same.
Yeah, you kind of do need to nerf an intended mechanic to bring them in line. And again, it addresses the differences between the weapon sets instead of creating more.
I did provide proof. You have ppm which is a constant between the 2 weapons, you have 60s which is also a constant between the weapons, and then you have base attack speed which is the only thing that is different and that is either 2.6 or 3.6 depending on which weapon. If you change either the ppm or 60s if changes for DW too. And you can’t change the base weapon speed unless you just want 2h to hit even slower with auto attacks which would bring down the chance to get a crit and then by extension the chance to proc KM.
You would have to rewrite the code, I have already explained this before and ignoring the explanation is not “providing no proof” it’s you just ignoring it.
If you put RI into mastery just take away RI. And again, it’s been explained by others as well that there would have to be a change to the enchanting system to allow 2h to apply 2 runes to it, which would change it for everyone else as well. Again needing to rewrite the code to just allow 2h to do something.
That’s why it wouldn’t be 5%. The numbers would have to be thoroughly tested. And even then, I’m not trying to make it 80-80. Nobody really wants that. They just don’t want it to be as off as it is at current. The percentage’s goal isn’t to increase it “slightly”. You could in theory slap a passive on Frost have it say “when equipped with a two hander every auto will crit” and that’d do nothing? Going from 80-20 to 80-50 is nothing?
It’s not at current. They’re about equal which checks out in terms of math. You have to factor in even with 2 weapons, the raw stats provided by a 2h is more than 2 1hs. 80% of a 2h’s stats equal out to 120% of 2 1h’s. You don’t have to bring back MotFW, you can adjust each equation independently. If 2h Obliterates start to become oppressive in a PVP environment, drop that 2h number down a bit but keep the DW number the same. Done. What other issues am I getting into with this style of change?
Of course it’s easier to just nerf DW. Just as it would be easier to not change covenants to allow you to change them. Doesn’t mean its the best solution. There’s no need to defend Blizz’s possible laziness. You should be challenging it.
No you didn’t. There are 2 situations. 1, Players choose the covenant they want, are locked in and won’t be able to change throughout the expansion. 2, Players have free will to change throughout the covenants. One covenant turns out to be really good for your class or spec. You picked a weaker one because of aesthetic reasons. You don’t get invited to Raids of Mythic + because of it. In this scenario is 1 or 2 worse off for the player base as a whole? If they’re the same level of bad explain why.
I don’t want to bring them exactly in line. I’ll say it again and again until you stop arguing from a point of equality. I intend on bringing them closer. Even with all these changes DW WILL BE BETTER THAN 2H. But leaving 2h at current is unacceptable. I want to bring them closer. So answer the questions,
Why wouldn’t buffing the 2h side of the Obliterate equation bring them closer?
Why wouldn’t increasing the crit chance of 2h auto’s bring them closer?
Why wouldn’t buffing GA around 2h for the ability to apply Razorice bring them closer?
Why wouldn’t buffing Obliteration around a heavier 2h Obliterate equation bring them closer?
Not exactly in line, simply closer.
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Kelliste - you should seriously consider joining the light and taking up the path of a Paladin. You wouldn’t even need to justify your hostility towards Deathknights.
Just imagine standing above the corpses of you previous brothers wielding Ashbringer…
He or she isn’t being too hostile, just really firm about the absolute of their position. There are obvious things you can do to bring 2h in line avoiding the problems of yesteryear, the question has always been, not what they can do, what will they do. Kelliste leans on the path of the least work possible, just dumping it on saying “you want it here it is” and not balancing it, or just nerfing DW and going “they’re equal now, happy”, which is understandable. I don’t think we should let Blizz get away with either. These arguments are just a roundabout way of saying “Blizz won’t do anything get used to it now”. We should be pushing against it but after being burned so many times the effort can seem pointless.
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Yea. The feedback has been given. There is no way Bliz misses it. Ill just wait and see at this point. If a real effort isnt made to get 2H is a decent place, I will lose interest super fast and just not re-sub.
I have other games I can give my money to. Fingers crossed.
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Problem with paladins is ret had big dead zonss where for like 3-5 seconds your waiting for your abilities to come off cd. I love paladins and dks but there are a few things in each class that are just killing it for me.
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