Chillpills? Doing dad jokes?
What is going on here? 
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And they can’t buff Frost Strike, the spender, to do damage because then you’ll have 2 Obliterates.
What causes Obliterates to do insane damage? Frostreaper. Solution: get rid of Frostreaper and average out either Obliterates OR Frost Strike.
No, he doesn’t mention that. Killing Machine is fine. It’s Frostreaper that’s the issue.
You could do this, if you didn’t have your builder getting buffed to that level of damage.
Let’s pick the true scenario: 2 stacks, 1 rune, plenty of RP because you need to burn KM procs as to not keep capping.
How’s that second stack holding up now? Same issue as before. You’re still going to end up in a small chance of over capping.
Wait and see is your solution? Yeah because you guys are so good when other people mention that.
It’s not over simplifying it. It’s bringing attention. What’s the DPS increase from 2 KM procs a minute?
It’s not 10%
I’ll let you stew on this one a bit.
I am literally a father lmao
2 Likes
Yes they actually can, No it wont be an obliterate it will still hit less than obliterate unless you opt for shattering blade, and even shattering blade FS doesnt hit harder than obliterate unless you crit the shattering blade. It will also come at the cost of your runic power instead of your runes which means for every froststrike you use it comes at the cost of less deathstrikes. Its a healthy for the game when you have to lose damage to heal and lose healing to do damage
Frostreaper + Frostwelps 8%-40% mastery + 25% ramping strength PoF + 18% RI +18% Fallen Crusader + 1000ish Stat from trinket + improved obliterate + frigid executioner + MotFW
But ah yes lets continue to ignore the 9 stacking modifiers and just continue to blame the one that we dont like
Honestly at this point im gonna go ahead and just conclude that youre a primate, Who wants frostreaper removed so you can brainlessly spam obliterate during BoS having it do insane damage along with your BoS because now it doesnt even have a proc that changes how it functions its literally just the ultimate spam this button over and over for resource generation
Oook ooook you are a monkey, Ive wrote paragraph after paragraph going into great detail why this isnt the issue but mr monkey brain cant write more than 1 sentance about why he disagrees but will never elaborate
Mr monkey brain being the hypocrite complaining about frostreaper making obliterate do to much dam during cds and to little outside of cds, but then being a monkey and saying you can actually just make froststrike do the exact same thing if obliterate was nerfed. Bringing us literally right back to square 1 except instead of it being over obliterate its now over froststrike ook ook ook
Doesnt happen monkey brain, if youre at one rune that means you used 2 obliterates which means you dont have 2 stacks
If you rngesused your way with 4pc and kept 2stacks after using 2 obliterates you wouldve also had to bad luck rng to not got any runes back from Murderous efficiency, Frigid executioner, Obliteration rune regen chance, Or had no empower rune weapon for 1 rune every 5s
Extremely well, because from my actual ptr testing You never find yourself with double stack killing machine until either A: It procs naturally, B: You intentionally double stack it during downtime (cc, mechanics, kite) or C: you get a cold blooded rage proc during the same gcd you use froststrike to force proc KM in which case you literally get 2 procs for 1 press
I spent an entire hour just bursting over and over and literally i can count on my single hand how many times i got starved on runes, And everytime i got starved on runes the double stack ended up being an absolutely insane clutch for getting my damage back on track as soon as i had the runes to spend. I was seeing pillar come back faster, I was seeing 4pc proc more often, I was ramping pillar higher and faster than before, Enduring strength was lasting much longer falling off around when pillar had 10s on cd left
Oh noooooo, Not a dramtically lower chance of overcapping killing machine WHAT EVER WILL WE DOOOOO AAAAAAAAA
Seriously youre a clown if you think the occasional over cap is an issue. The problem was it wasnt just an occasional overcap. It became extremely regular to overcap killing machine since SL when obliteration became meta again
And then those overcaps literally doubled since DF release because now we get pillar back faster, spend more time in our window where we proc KM, Have talents that increase our crit chance we didnt have before, We now have 2 empower rune weapons to increase haste which contributes to KM procs, And to top it all off its S1 so secondary states are deflated rn, Which means as the xpac goes on we will actually get more overlaps on KM procs than we do rn
but either way, the odds of the overlap are more than twice as unlikely to occur and thats some rough math, im sure the actual real math on the likelyhood of a KM overlap is much more than just twice as unlikely
And your alternative of being God and being Omniscient im sure is much better right?
4 Likes
Take out all the Frost modifiers….your Obliterates don’t hit for crap now. Again, take out Frostreaper and you’ve got a second Frost Strike. And we’re not seeing 250k Frost Strikes.
Ah yes, let’s just skip over the “or” part that touches on the RP spender that BoS does not touch. Your two brain cells aren’t always rubbing against each other are they?
Yeah except all your “giga” modifiers you like to throw around are affecting Frost damage/Mastery. If you can’t understand how the issue lies with trying to tune around Frostreaper, then there’s no point in trying to explain how removing Frostreaper and buffing FS isn’t just swapping names.
Isn’t this why you guys cried for a second stack of KM? Because of the occasional over cap? Lmao 
Aww projection is cute
I mean if some players are so adamant about Frostreaper’s existence for having its base damage sacrificed for a better scaling, there should be a compromise: You might as well put that talent node in place of Imp. Obliterate. So Obliterate can be Physical Damage for some build depending on your character stats.
Personally I don’t really see the downside of Frostreaper being baseline but I can kind of understand the wish of Obliterate originally dealing Physical Damage in the first place with different builds weighs different secondary stats.
BfA Obliterate was 88% AP Scaling from 2H and 60%/60% AP Scaling from DW with no Obliterate damage increase other than Icy Citadel.
SL Obliterate was 66.2% AP Scaling from 2H and 44.73%/44.73% AP Scaling for DW with 10% Obliterate Damage increase with our beloved KM58 that became Frostreaper.
DF Obliterate is currently 87.603% AP Scaling from 2H and 59.182%/59.182% AP Scaling from DW with 10% Obliterate Damage increase from the Talent Tree AND Frozen Executioner.
The base damage of DF Obliterate seems very close to BfA Obliterate if it weren’t for more modifiers relative to other classes. As for Fatal Fixation, it really depends on whether or not if I want to get a whopping 5 point talent that is Obliteration or any other sources of KM procs than an AA-Crit, I guess that’s another point for me saved.
I dunno, we’ll see. Maybe I’ll get Fatal Fixation with Obliteration & CBR. Maybe not. But I still miss 8.3 Pillar overlapping Icy Citadel. These changes may be a breath of fresh air like Unholy is right now. o,o
I’d like to raise a point about KM stacking that people seem to miss. In your oblit window you can be unlucky and starve for runes. You then end with a KM proc but having to press FS/GA to fish for an RE proc. Currently, that just completely wastes a KM proc. However with them stacking, you’ll generate an additional charge that you can then spend later with your runes recharging. It happens quite frequently and I think it’ll feel much better to play.
Also, the 4-set doesn’t add that many KMs, like 10-15% extra or so.
8 Likes
The more and more damage put into a single button press, the more likely it is to be nerfed.
Not to mention that both Obliterate and Frost Strike are both builders and spenders. Its just one isnt guaranteed. Obliterate spends runes to build RP at a 100% guarantee to give RP. Frost Strike on the other hand spends RP to build Runes but at a chance. So you can have these scenarios where you can spend a whole RP bar and get nothing.
And you are right, I havent said KM is the problem, but Frostreaper or KM rank 2 whichever people want to use. When it was introduced almost instantly Obliterate was nerfed. It was like a week or so and I was saying that something has to give. No way an ability is going to make up 60% of a specs damage and not be a target. But what do I know right? Then it got nerfed and people said KM procs were low even at 27% crit and that Obliterate baseline needed to be buffed. That complaint hasnt changed since but there is no way to do it without either a Frostreaper redesign or a nerf to mastery which impacts the whole spec.
Frost Strike and Obliterate were also around the same damage. In wrath they both make up close to 25% of the overall damage output. The average is about 15k for Obliterate in terms of Crits, though KM doesnt work with it at all, and Frost Strike is about 13k average crits. Not to mention that the OH does more than half of the MH damage in Wrath so 2h basically doesnt exist there.
It was much more stable and it didnt matter that they did almost the same damage. It was playing the spec properly that mattered. Keeping up diseases though pestilence and converting blood runes and having this cycle played properly.
The only reason why people want to ignore Frostreaper is because Obliterate. They went through expansions saying Obliterate needs to scale with mastery and it doesnt do enough damage. But now that it can do big shiny numbers and gives them a dopamine hit, they dont care how bad it is for the spec.
Not to mention some people complain about how Wounds are like combo points, but want to turn RI stacks into that as well. Sorry but if I wanted to play a rogue I would, but I dont. I want to play a Death Knight, a rampaging berserker of the north.
Funny, I don’t see any nerfs coming at BoS.
Funny how its a risk vs reward talent that completely eats up other runic power spenders so that you cant use them.
Dont compare Obliterate to BoS. They arent even in the same ballpark.
Push BoS and just stand there and don’t press any other buttons. How much damage did BoS just do?
Activate pillar of frost without pressing anything else and see how much damage you do.
We weren’t discussing nerfing Pillar. At least try to make a coherent argument.
Quit with these poor arguments. Seriously.
BoS isnt comparable to either Pillar or Obliterate.
If you do nothing you get nothing, period.
But BoS is a RP spender / rune generator and its risk vs reward. It takes over for Frost Strike almost completely with the very first talent point going to complete waste. You are sacrificing other stuff for BoS. You arent doing that with Obliterate and more and more is being put into that singular button press.
What is being added to BoS? Obliterate is literally getting everything currently and even though they are trying to buff up Frostscythe to fill the aoe role that its supposed to, they just make a dumb decision of making Obliterate cleave one more enemy negating the very thing they were trying to do with Frostscythe. Why dont we buff up Obliterate by 200% and make it cleave 100 enemies at this point?
The implication was the obliteration talent but I gave the audience too much credit to figure that out. My argument was against the whole ‘too much damage in one button will cause nerfs!’ BS. Breath is far too good at what it does for ‘one button’ but it still dominates and that isn’t likely to change.
Almost every single class in the entire game sees 1 ability absolutely dwarfing their other abilities
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Then say Obliteration. But again if you do nothing you gain nothing, period.
BoS is a single button press, but what are they packing into that ability? Its an upkeep ability, they havent buffed it or nerfed it, it doesnt have 75 talents buffing it, they havent done anything to it like what they are doing to obliterate.
BoS isnt a single button press though. Obliterate is and you have to use it to upkeep the other ability you suggest is a single button that has a huge damage output alone.
Obliterates cleave has been increased, consumes stacks of Inexorable Assault, gets boosted with frostreaper, stacks bonegrinder through KM procs which in turn increases its own damage due to Frostreaper, has a chance of refunding its cost, Murderous Efficiency, lowers the CD on Icecap through crits, increases the strength gained from Pillar and it also interacts with RW. That one button press has the capability to do all that.
Bos just does damage and upkeeps Icy Talons and Unleashed Frenzy while giving some runes in the process. These 2 abilities arent even comparable in what i was talking about.
Way too much is being packed into that single button press and eventually its going to take a hit somewhere and I didnt even include MotFW in that laundry list or some of the other damage increases.
It doesn’t weigh ANY secondary stats when its pure physical. It in fact would complete **** 2H specs because its the bread and butter to the whole spec and taking away all of its scaling is a smoothbrain idea. Changing it back to pure physical would accomplish absolutely zero positive effects because the only secondary it would even gain benefit from is crit. Except Frost doesn’t want infinite crit because of the existence of killing machine. At a certain point, it becomes a wasted stat. But then you’d have all of the rest of our damage wanting Mastery with some Haste sprinkled in. Our scaling would be absolutely f****d for no reason. Its why Frostreaper (or KM Rank 2) was even introduced in the first place.
Surely you can see how stupid it would be to have a spec that revolves around Obliterate, get ZERO benefit from Mastery which affects literally all of the rest of our damage aside from auto attacks.
You’re advocating for regressive changes that re-introduce problems from over a decade ago. Stop it. You’re better than this. I’ve seen that with my own eyes.
But conversely with Physical Obliterate, you would weigh Mastery a bit less and have more secondary stats with something else:
There should be a choice between Frostreaper, a node that makes Obliterate KMs deal Frost Damage OR a node that just increases Obliterate’s Damage even further.
Point being, if players want to make a physical build about Obliterate’s big physical damage dealing move, just let them.
You get to keep Frostreaper (I would too if I have a lot of Mastery), but if Phys Obliterate is desired (I would too if I have a lot of Versatility) it should be accommodated for increased build variety.
This node should be at Imp. Obliterate node with it being either baked in or moved as a prerequisite for Pillar of Frost along with Runic Command just increases RP damage (Imagine BoS gets VF’d). On top of Imp. Rime should be baked in as well because that talent serves absolutely no purpose but a talent tax for a full Rime value.
Haste and Crits are… Whatever as your post stated.
I’d advise you to read my posts again and understand what I wish to convey about Obliterate and Frostreaper. I like Frostreaper as a baseline. I’m not 100% against it. It’s just a bit boring and I just can’t help but wonder why nodes like Imp. Obliterate shouldn’t be baked in and replace it with a build defining choice node for something more interesting.
Something outside of the box such as the existence of Physical Builds for Frost. Because that’s what originally 2H Frost was during Pre-Legion Days. Was the scaling bad? Sure. But it was a build.
Damage Increasing nodes are fine by themselves… but we have stuff like Imp. Rime exist that’s just there behind RW (or Biting Cold)… For no reason. At least Imp. Obliterate just puts more power into that ability, Physical or Frost, and the premise of that node at least made sense.
And hey, if your build is focused on one ability that doesn’t benefit from Mastery then… Maybe invest your secondaries into something else? It’s not like Demonbolt has the same issue with this ability or anything like that. >,>
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No. We would just have 1 good secondary and 3 garbage ones.
There should be a choice between Frostreaper, a node that makes Obliterate KMs deal Frost Damage OR a node that just increases Obliterate’s Damage even further.
Or…as I’ve said probably a dozen times at this point…make Obliterate always deal Frost damage. That increases its baseline damage, has no effect on its KM damage and doesn’t destroy our scaling or mess with Pillar/Obliteration whatsoever. Literally the only thing it would do is make Mastery slightly more valuable than it already is and bump up our damage outside of Pillar windows. Thats it. Theres no possible way you can look at me with a straight face and say that Frost Strike (our dump) doing more damage than a non proc Obliterate (2 runes) is fine. No f-ing way.
Thats not build variety. Its just taking the least garbage option. You’re essentially advocating for removing ALL scaling to be removed from 35-40% of our damage. We would be screwing ourselves no matter what we picked. Do we buff 70% our damage at the cost of more or less making Pillar and Obliteration worthless? Or do we stack Vers at the cost of everything else which would make the very problem you’re thinking this would avoid 10x worse by making us do even less damage outside of Pillar?
Removing Frostreaper without giving Oblit some kind of scaling with Mastery is outright bad design. Thats not debatable. Thats literally why Frostreaper exists. Obliterate doesn’t scale with anything. Armor Pen isn’t a stat anymore. We don’t have an armor reducer. We cannot buff our physical damage outside of raw stat increase and Vers, which scales like complete s**t with the entire rest of our whole class. Thats garbage. Even Blood avoids Vers.