Obliteration is fine. It’s only issue now is that it’s costing so many points to get allocated into. Same with BoS. CBR feels like dud to get.
All I’m saying is that Frostreaper should be a choice node between it and a damage increase for Obliterate. At the place of Imp. Obliterate. Whether or not it should be baked in.
This has been discussed a lot, and the general consensus of these forums is they’d prefer less frequent, larger Oblits with very small Oblits as the default [your 20k - 130k range], than more frequent, moderate sized Oblits [35k - 70k], and given Blizzard is making Frostreaper baseline, they seem to feel the first is the better choice of the two.
And then Mastery is just Strength/Vers under another name and achieves functionally nothing in making Obliterate not feel horrible to press, since it’ll still be 19k~ baseline. Yeah, you’re doubling the non-crit damage from 10k~ after armor to 19k~ at the cost of completely trashing any semblance of decent design in the spec. Another great idea from you as always.
It’s a poorly designed talent, and this is pretty clear given it hasn’t been good since Legion (with a tier set and borrowed powers that were huge for it). Of the two capstones, BoS needs it’s duration reduced & damage/RP consumption increased, but Obliteration needs a full on redesign so it’s actually something decent.
It has been talked about but people play stupid like they don’t understand how it works because they like seeing 150k Oblits (I do too but the drop to 15k Crits otherwise sucks).
I also mentioned this with the change to KM stacking twice being a waste of a talent point in the future and it was largely ignored because then people would have to acknowledge that their cries for “KM stacking twice would save the spec” is in vain
If anyone said it would ‘save the spec’ then that’s just untrue and a bit of an exaggeration. What the stacking does is give a very nice quality of life change. I personally love quality of life changes. I feel they are some of the best changes blizzard can do sometimes.
They were saying it would save the spec because damage isnt being wasted from procs overwriting procs. Its not a “quality of life” thing, its literally “my damage is being wasted” and this damage wouldnt feel so bad to be wasted if Frostreaper wasnt there boosting your Obliterates to astronomical values depending on your mastery and stacking trinkets, PoF, Brittle, Rune Mastery, Bonegrinder, RI and Fallen Crusader with Unholy Bond.
I find it absolutely hilarious that people are trying to talk out of both sides of their mouths. They want things taken out of all these modifiers and put back into the base abilities, but one of the biggest damage swings there is in the spec… nope. Not an issue. That KDS kicking in by many people on here that would rather have a bad spec than even acknowledge the issues that Frostreaper is causing all because I bring it up. Hilarious.
There’s literally a thread on this forum unironically titled “We’re saved” after the changes were announced. So no, some people do believe the upcoming changes will fix Obliteration’s design flaws (it won’t).
Yes but not in response to one damn talent. It’s very very obvious he’s speaking about the whole package. Awful awful argument, do better.
Oh yea true also! Biceps ran the math. It’s quality of life and better numbers. Win win!
Here you go, read through this.
PS - QoL would be things like barbershop, postal addon, plater addon. Changing the functionality of abilities to increase DPS does not fall under that list
I’ve read it. If you look closely I’m the 6th comment down.
QoL covers many things. This talent improves QoL by smoothing our gameplay. Unleashed frenzy change was also QoL and better damage numbers. The 2 are not mutually exclusive.
Sims do not equal to gameplay. I would have thought people would have learned that by now.
This is only really happening because of the tier set. Even in SL when the whole 2 stack was brought up the tier set was inflating KM procs and so is this one. If thats the best they can do in terms of tier sets is KM proc increases the spec does need a complete redesign because thats just boring and no real diversity can be made, like i have been saying for years now.
Hey, damage swings arent fundamentally a bad thing. Sorry i had to completely obliterate your foundation of an argument with just that sentence alone
Obliterate being a builder, Very justly should do very low damage when its not in its prime time niche conditions to do more which is killing machine + Pillar
Hence why its damage swing between builder oblit for RP, And Damage oblit for burst are so dramatically different
The modifiers the good frost dks who actually play the game unlike you, want changed, Are the ones based around our spenders. Froststrike, and Rime (we’ll call rime a spender because of the proc lol) Icebreaker and shattering blade both are to powerful and make both froststrike and howling blast do pitiful damage when the talents arent played. And its acceptable that these talents exist, But they dont have to be THAT strong. SOME of that power could be fairly shifted into the core to lead to less overall feeling of uselessness among the playerbase when they dont play certain talents or dont have cds up
So with that being said
None of that matters anymore 
because from the very beginning you strawmanned your own argument by trying to assume myself, and other Dks have an issue with obliterates modifiers and obliterate being a noodle, when infact, thats not the issue, all those other modifiers you listed though are the issue and also part of my point. Its not frostreaper thats the plague on fdk, because frostreaper only affects obliterate
BUT THESE
Affect literally ALL of our buttons, and ALL of them have to be tuned with ALL of those modifiers in consideration. Rune mastery/Brittle being the most boring and bloat of them all with the others being the only interesting modifiers. Ive been arguing for a bit now that our runeforges could see some changing mainly making FC baseline and slightly weaker like 10% STR on a slightly higher proc rate so Frost can play RI and Hypo and unholy can use Rune of Apoc which should also be giga buffed
Your fixation on frostreaper, is very misplaced. Youll never understand that though because you dont play the game you write forum posts about
Feel free to explain why you think it wont fix obliterations design flaws
Instead of just being a waste of space by making the simple comment and then refusing to elaborate further
I want to legitimately see you write an entire paragraph that goes extremely into detail and in depth with thorough explanation as to your reasoning
Until then im going to just assume youre a pessimist casual fdk player like the majority, Who cant tell what good or bad buffs look like for the long term of the spec they play
Because thats the 1 thing you fail to see, Rome wasnt built in 1 day, Nor will a spec come completely out of the gutter in 1 day, Those frost changes for all we know are just the beginning of many more changes that could come in the future
One thing is for certain is these are the most design focused, Proper buffs frost received since legion. Before dragonflight the only changes youd see to frost dk are sad pathetic bandaid % buffs on abilities that were underperforming, never anything that revolved around the function/flow of the spec such as these changes
Even if these changes end up not being enough, The mentality the devs took making these changes was the best mentality they ever had making changes to frost. Theyre on the right track and thats something that never could be said before
It doesn’t actually though. You’ll come to see why eventually. It’s just going to shift the complaint from GCD locked to resource starvation
Damage % didn’t change. Just the duration. Doesn’t lead to better numbers when it never falls off in the first place?
QoL for people who are routinely bad. But not for the spec
Incorrect, If you used multiple obliterates in a row you might become rune starved but you wouldve built almost a whole bar of runic power in the meantime
and if you still have a proc during this downtime where youre smashing RP spenders, you might even get a double proc again to repeat the process and expend all of your runes again to mash froststrike
It really wont be an issue if the overarching net result of the change is more occurrences of resource starvation because if that really becomes some big bad problem then that sounds like the perfect reason to buff horn of winter out of F tier back into the game with a purpose
Hell make Horn of winter proc killing machine LMAO NOW WE TALKIN BOOOOOYS
Wow you must be the luckiest man alive to never get any mechanics or have to kite literally anything to where you get 100% uptime on max stacked unleashed
Its a QoL change that does increase dps overall depsite not being a direct increase to STR %
The damage increase literally comes from the overall increased uptime which is undeniable regardless of how good or bad you are, If you had 95% uptime before then congrats you must have 100% now so that 5% uptime gain is infact, a dps increase
I dont see how people could say they have more RP than they know what to do with but still demand a duration increase for UF. Its not like you couldnt hit Frost Strike every 6 seconds with what they portrays as unlimited RP.
Wow its actually really cringe reading a post like this one knowing the only reason you cant fathom why the duration was increased is because you literally dont play the game
The duration was increased because you couldnt reliably spend runic power to upkeep the buff when you mightve had to prioritize obliterate or howling blast, Or if you lost uptime from mechanics, movement, or crowd control
Its literally completely unrelated to how much RP we do or dont have. It was changed because of uptime being shorter than they liked
They are. Why else would everyone complain about no damage outside of Pillar windows ?
Then in that same sense, Frost Strike should always consistently be doing high end damage as a spender. But it feels just as bad as hitting Oblit outside of KM procs.
But it is…there’s plenty of threads discussing the lack of sustained damage outside of Pillars windows. Shattering Blade is a strong talent to take, but it falls off horrendously in a 2H build where you’re not gaining stacks of RI near as fast as a DW build.
Double stacking KM does nothing when you don’t have the resources to use it. This has been addressed before.
So…:.your answer to fixing what you guys wanted and claimed would fix the spec is to buff another ability so that it’ll fix the new problem your current fixed caused?
Great fix there guys. Thought that one through.
All this really does is let’s you exit a Pillars window with a KM proc in hoard and ready to use.
Ah yea, hyperboles. Psst, you have a ranged ability that triggers the buff.
Just let him fluff his own ego. I’ve had him on ignore for months. Ever single suggestion made by this group have always had an accompanying complaint. The complaint just keeps getting shifted.
Not to mention this might just end up causing Obliterate to be nerfed again or better yet MotFW because DW shouldnt get nerfed because 2h throws all of its eggs into one basket.
Because the other 2 abilities that are part of Frosts core rotation, The non builder abilities that cant just be spammed mindlessly, Hit for 15k-20k without any of the giga modifers to help them out
The issue of no damage outside pillar of frost isnt an issue of obliterate not hitting hard enough, its an issue of mainly froststrike not hitting hard enough, And also Howling blast
congratulations on literally just retyping out what i literally just said 5 posts above. At least youre catching on though, even if slowly its a step further than kelliste ever got
But its not… Yes the threads exist talking about lack of sustain. But the only individuals who attempt to suggest killing machine or obliterate are the issue is kelliste. None of the high rated/xp dks such as myself flark pizzadawg or mes think thats the issue
All of them would tell you the lack of sustain outside of pillar is a result from our spender modifiers being to powerful and our spenders being to dependent on picking them up to see the numbers blizz thinks are acceptable
No crap, But thats my point, 2h cant use the talent without sacrificing a runeforge, and DW the spec that can use this talent still suffers from the exact same issue 2h suffers from because of the same talent. Blizzard going into Dragonflight had to tune froststrikes numeric value with a 100% buff talent being considered. You cant buff froststrike to hit for an average of 50k for example as a baseline because then with all the modifiers and cds we have you could end up froststriking for 250k+ because of shattering blade. The only way you resolve this is to buff froststrike by an equal amount that you nerf shattering blade. It wont have literally any effect on what your maxed out froststrike will achieve but it will impact the froststrikes you see on a regular basis inside and outside pillar of frost and thats whats important. Thats whats gonna make fdk feel like it does no damage outside of pillar to feeling like it still has the potential to move healthbars without cds
When it comes to frosts sustain non CD damage, Froststrike, Howling blast, And remorseless winter are the emphasis, And all 3 of those have INSANE UBER GIGA modifiers.
So to recap, No its not obliterate. Get that corrupted kelliste idea out of your head immediately. The issue is the overtuning of Icebreaker, Shattering blade. And the existence of 3 giga damage increases to remorseless winter as talents
Nerf the % increase that literally all of these talents grant us and buff all the core by the same % as the nerf. Bam FDK sustain damage doesnt feel useless anymore outside pillar literally problem solved the math dont lie
Imagine unironically thinking youll ever find yourself in a situation where you have both 2 stacks of killing machine built, And also 0 runes and 0 runic power
LOL literally stop trolling bro the situation you described will unironically never happen
And worst case scenario, Youre rune starved and runic power starved. You have 2 killing machines stacked. You just simply wait for the runes to recharge and use them when its available. Also refer to my buff horn of winter in this very unlikely event as the resolution to this very weak argument you just tried to make
No, thats the answer i gave you, a skeptical mid tier DK with slightly above basic understanding of their spec, To show you just how baseless your issues with fatal fixation truly are. You tried to make the argument we’re just going to be runestarved, which is not only over exaggerated, But is also literally why i decided to remind you that we still have talents in our talent tree to remedy this imaginary problem YOU CAME UP WITH that just simply are ignored and not played because we currently suffer from more of a feast problem than a famine problem. If these changes put us more in a famine state than a feast state, The first logical conclusion you would draw would be to make the resource generating talent blizzard added in the tree, more appealing to pick. Which promotes build diversity, Which is exactly what theyre going for when they baked in MOTFW and Remorseless winter into our core kit.
Blizzard wants ALL of the talents to have their purposes. Horn of winter serves no purpose in a feast meta. And it provides no dps increase either. Simple solution is wait until famine meta, See if its picked then, and if its still not picked then either replace it or buff it
Youre mocking yourself at this point
Which is very good for the damage throughput of the specialization we play.
“oh the ret rework is just gonna let u do more damage and live longer”
“all this really does is give u an extra damage proc to use”
Trying to over simplify things to make them sound insignificant is a rather lazy way to go about arguing against me. Incase you couldnt tell i am fully prepared to write you entire thesis’ on why you are incorrect about these issues. I tried to stress that you should do the same in writing why you think obliteration will remain poorly designed and flawed but seeing that you havent done that yet it leads me to assume you just spew stuff from your behind
You realize deathcoil doesnt trigger UF. Perhaps i overestimated your general dk knowledge afterall
Itd be even worse if you were attempting to refer to glacial advance
I mean, I hope not. But it’s a possibility lol I play the 2H style. But I also see the issues with it and not out here demanding they revamp the spec to match my alternate play style