I like the idea of this tree making the character bigger, but I would echo other concerns about hitboxes and spacing abilities and how this might all interact. Does being bigger make it harder to avoid mechanics? That’s not fun.
I really, really, really want to fight for Demolish not rooting us in place. It’s not fun on Fyralath now in Dragonflight, even after the haste change, it’s not going to be fun in the future either. Also…you can move while channeling fists of fury, and you have some limited movement while channeling eye beam as well I’m pretty sure.
I also feel like the Colossus Tree not having any interactions with Avatar is a missed opportunity. I know that’s been part of the Mountain Thane tree, but it really feels like it should be part of this tree too. Maybe Demolish could proc Avatar? I also like the idea of Avatar granting stacks of might for Demolish for on-pull uses and such mentioned by others.
My only other concern is it does currently feel a bit passive. Where Mountain Thane has some procs and at least a little dynamic aspect to it. This is just an active ability and a bunch of passives - and that active ability is trying to find its spot in what is currently a bloated arms rotation IMO.
I’m with Artunias in the sense that passives don’t feel like adding much. If we are doing some kind of “specialized” talent trees I’m more for the fantasy and some insteresting interaction/change with other existing skills.
For example:
If you are prot you can hold a 2H and a shield, if you are Arms your attack and skills range increases
Your jump can stun
Avatar gives you other buffs like temp HP, dmg reduction, etc
Shockwave CD reset when using avatar
I like the size thing and the possible trade-off of hit boxes, as long as the buffs are on par.
Part of the root when using demolish problem could be “solved” by using the suggestion I made that the tree could either be a demolish burst user or a buff stack maintainer. Even though Firalak root can get you in bad situations I think it is an interesting tatical choice of when to use. It does have a much higher CD though and delaying it a few seconds shouldn’t be a problem. Demolish seems like a core rotation skill, so if you delay a core rotation skill waiting for the best moment you will probably fall behind to classes that don’t need to worry about that.
In summary:
1 - Analyze if the passive effects can be per talent taken (or per talent "color taken as someone suggested) for all trees and make the full tree, but the first and capstone talents, choice talents. The trees are quite short, this should be possible.
2 - Make all talents modifiers to existing talents and skills that fit the tree fantasy.
3 - Either remove the root or increase power and CD for the skill so it fits in a CD burst phase. I think the 3 hits with different ranges someone suggested seems a good call for the option of removing the root
4 - Give us more diversity and choice. A full option talent tree could either specialize in big bursts with demolition, keep yourself buffed by maintaining stacks (but never spending with demolition) or a bit of both worlds, on player choice
5 - Think about some interesting changes for the fantasy of colossus: maybe avatar makes you bigger and gives temp HP and stoneskin (like HOTS Muradin avatar), maybe prot can use 2H + shield, maybe Arms gets increased range on attacks and/or skills, maybe jump becomes an aoe stun and/or territory control (like HOTS Sonya ultimate), maybe you can throw an enemy into another like bg3 barbs
I like what you are doing and that you take feedback from the community, but I still feel those hero trees are just new talents without much flavor, I’m pretty sure you can make it more interesting!
With that in mind I think the tree should be called Champion. Fits the Warrior mentality and fits smaller races better.
The talent “Mountain of Muscle and Scars” could be renamed to Collosas to keep that theme going for those who like it.
I like the concept.
We already have Bladestorm to lock us out of abilities and having another is going to feel funky.
Maybe it’s time for a Bladestorm rework.
I like those moves and think something like them would give Arms/Prot some much needed brutality but I will wait and see what it feels like. Maybe this will do a good job of filling that roll.
It’s kinda hard to judge the hero talents until we know the whole picture.
Stormbolt needs to be baseline at this point. It is needed in every form of play from solo PvE to Raiding to Mythic to all forms of PvP. It’s iconic to every spec and should always be a part of the Warrior toolkit no matter the talent setup.
This is true with several other moves but this in particular stands out.
That sounds interesting, maybe we could move some off the class tree since it is kinda execute heavy.
This. It’s why most of us rejected Banners. It’s why slam got reworked.
Going from mobile to having to stay in one spot always disrupts the flow.
Also this.
Berserker Rage/Thunderclap/Storm Bolt/Deep Wounds should all be baseline.
I would rather have the Fury Whirlwind be baseline but that would be a good step.
I have been wanting scars as a bassline customization for all races since beta.
Not to detract from the class feedback but I really think this should be done.
This is true, and I’ve removed the reference to it from yesterday’s reply. That was a mistake.
Additionally, please note that Demolish will be cancelable. You can cancel Demolish if you decide you need to move or do something else while unleashing the attacks.
Let’s set aside the fact that you’re immobile while using it. That’s bad, and it reduces class differentiation by making us more similar to DH, but plenty of other people have already talked about that at length.
Even if you could move, this would still be a problem. Arms already struggles in Mythic+ because Bladestorm is a significant part of our AoE damage kit for most builds, and the reason that’s a problem is because you cannot interrupt or use other stops while spinning.
Bladestorm at least is a very infrequent part of your rotation, so you can work around it. It always feels absolutely terrible when you wipe because a mob did a cast while you were Bladestorming, but if you play properly, it’s rare.
Based on the CD, and with the CDR involved, Demolish will be used at least twice as often and since it’s a “true” channel unlike Bladestorm, I’m guessing you can’t even pop defensives while using it. Arms is already a spec that struggles badly with utility in Mythic+, even if you spec into Shockwave, and further limiting your ability to use what little you have when it’s actually needed will just push the spec even further out of the meta.
This ability also lacks some of the mild upsides that make Bladestorm a little more tolerable in PvE, like its ability to break/ignore roots, which can be used on bosses like Oakheart in Darkheart Thicket.
Please reconsider. Fyr’alath’s channel is widely hated for a reason.
What other issues will this ability have for example, if the targeted mob dies will the rest of the cast continue or will it just end like the axe. Will it be castable only on a target or will it act like ww/bladestorm/shockwave. Will sweeping strikes work with this (like overpoweer/dreadnaught) causing it to strike twice. Will it be hasted.
Having to create and use cancleaura macros to be able to avoid anti melee mechanics, tanks suddenly aiming frontals at us due to some M+ affix, interupt etc etc is already a painful experience, especially when by design its a huge amount of damage that you will be losing to do so.
That’s actually worse… Now we can be knocked out of the channel as well as one millimeter of movement cancelling it whether we intended to or not. Thank you for doubling down on my reason to avoid Colossus.
Written from Arms perspective. I play with prot warriors, but I only play Arms. Also, I’m long winded. Sorry?
At a top level, I think the core idea is solid. The idea of building up to a satisfying big hit definitely falls within the concept of Arms, although I have a harder time linking it to Prot in my mind.
Sure, the concept is very simple; we aren’t gluing bits of the sun to our enemies or accidentally summoning random demons when trying to cast other spells. But if at the end of the day I can say “Timmy Deathbringer, I see you have used industrial strength adhesive to combine a zombie and the sun into a single burning pile of ash, but I smacked a bear real hard and saw a big yellow number over it’s head that is higher than either you or I can count. The bear died.” then I’ll find it acceptable. So long as the resulting playstyle works, simple is fine, and fits the warrior concept.
And I appreciate the notice on moving Shockwave; while warrior utility (or the lack thereof) is often a hot topic among warriors, that is a conversation for the main talent tree, not the Hero trees.
That said, as-is there are definitely some major concerns with the tree. Most have been mentioned in other comments, to varying degrees of extremity. I tried to stick with Quality of Life / flow of playstyle comments, rather than a major rework of the tree.
Concerns:
Cooldown alignment.
Basically, if Demolish and CSmash cooldowns don’t line up, it will not feel good to play (I mean, “Colossus” should work with “Colossus Smash”, right?). So instead of trying to fine-tune the CD reduction for post 10 Colossal Might stacks until it is roughly equal to Anger Management, just make Anger Management directly affect it. That way it lines up with CSmash for Arms and Avatar (every other Demolish) for Prot. That wouldn’t be the first talent-dependent thing on a Hero Tree, and it’s not like we will ever skip taking Anger Management.
I don’t see “wasting gained stacks of Colossal Might” if hitting the max of 10 before cooldown is up is a problem. You are already rewarded enough for hitting 10 stacks earlier by the other stacking damage buffs, no need to “reward” us with the cooldown reduction required to make the ability fit cleanly in the rotation.
Obviously the root/channel isn’t so popular.
I get the concept (building up for a big swing with tactical payout), but either forcing delay in the rotation or having to cancel early and miss the big hit is a big deal, especially when tied to what sounds like a frequent critical source of damage. Assuming the overall damage output for the other Hero specs are approximately the same, the resulting “tactical choice” will end up being to either risk using it on cooldown and hope for the best each time, or simply use the other Hero specs and not have that risk but get the same output. Even if I like the concept of the Hero tree, why would I ever choose to add risk of unreliable damage when pushing higher content if I have an option with the same potential output but no added risk?
If you are dead-set on the root concept, at least mitigate some of the risk. Maybe give it an approx. 3-5 sec damage reduction (maybe only aoe/environment damage reduction, since that typically is the major threat from the root?). Or (assuming most of the damage is in the final hit), don’t consume the Colossal Might stacks if you interrupt it before the last hit (or only consume some of them) so you at least keep some of the other stacking damage buffs if you have to miss out on the big hit.
Either make it where you have the option to tank a hit (within reason) in order to get the whole channel off, or make sure if you do have to interrupt it mid-cast the result isn’t so punishing as to make the spec not competitive for harder content (and doesn’t feel like a great big disappointment when it happens, because it will likely happen fairly frequently in some content).
I’m fine with the channel, so long as it is worth the 2 seconds and is affected by haste. Honestly, if not for the root, I’d be fine with a 3 second channel if the damage number feels good at the end.
As mentioned by others, make sure we can use off-global defensives while casting (similar to Bladestorm).
Target moving out of range during cast is a HUGE concern, especially with the big hit being at the very end. Obvious PVP implications aside, I can’t force a tank to hold everything still for 2 seconds every 30 seconds. If this is going to be a big cool damage ability, it will be SUPER frustrating if the tank has to dodge a swirly and moves the target out of range 20% of the time.
Anger Management/Test of Might snowball synergy (Arms specific concern).
Background: I enjoy the snowball effect of rotating Csmash buff and Test of Might and struggling via haste and careful rage management to get them to overlap. That is one of the pillars of effectively playing Arms. Right now in Dragonflight, Arms is so ridiculously rage efficient that “rage management” = spend as much as possible around Overpower and MS, because you are frequently capped and wasting rage generation. Even execute phase has almost no real rage management. The fact that people started using Ignore Pain as an off global rage dump in Season 2 should be a clear indicator how important spending rage is for Arms.
Issue: If Demolish delivers the damage as advertised, we will want to use it during the CSmash buff window. In an ideal world, I should want to cast Demolish during those precious few seconds with Csmash buff, Recklessness, and the lingering ToM buff (with enough haste) to really pump out a huge satisfying crit. But there’s the problem: if I want to use Demolish when it will do the most damage, I have to use it during the time I need to be spending every bit of rage I can (both to stack ToM and to dump rage during Recklessness to avoid wasted rage generation). Even if I don’t use Demolish until the end of CSmash buff (which supports the alternate strategy of keeping the Colossal Might damage buffs during CSmash), I’m still spending 1-2 globals that could be spending rage to get a better ToM buff to instead use my capstone ability.
All that said, depending on any other changes to rage generation/spending Blizz does, it might end up ok (assuming any changes are being made). However, assuming dropping it on top of the Dragonflight Arms warrior, I would rather Demolish have a rage cost of 30 or so for Arms to help it feed that snowball effect rather than hinder it. For prot, I suspect they prefer the current 0 rage cost version (there is plenty of precedent for different rage cost for different warrior specs).
Weak on pull, which is usually when party/raid wide buffs are up (such as heroism).
Arms already heavily leans on execute phase for damage (which isn’t really a problem), but this seems designed to leave us weaker for the first 20-30 seconds of the fight, which will feel bad on all raid bosses that use heroism on pull. Something like Avatar giving stacks of Colossal Might, or even a “gain X stacks when entering combat” (even if it has a cooldown to help balance it in M+/open world/PVP) could solve the issue.
Based on the 100% damage increase from 10 Colossal Might stacks, it looks like as-is we simply will never use it until the 2nd CSmash of the fight.
Additional Comments:
Practiced Strikes.
I don’t dislike more MS/SS damage, but it would be cool if it was crit based instead of flat damage so it synergizes with the other crit based parts of the tree (Martial Expert, True Might). Flat damage buffs will always have the perception of being something that is just tuned away for balance behind the scenes, even if the different Hero trees buff different abilities.
Rally.
Can you just tell us what the “low chance” is, instead of making us guess or look up datamining or extensive testing online? Does it have a cooldown?
I have never understood not listing proc chances and internal cooldowns in the UI; do you feel looking them up online is a critical aspect of the game? Or do you think it is better if we don’t know exactly what our abilities/items do?
Heroic Leap.
If I’m a bigger-than-average warrior, I just kind of would expect something to be different on Heroic Leap. From a gameplay perspective I wouldn’t expect much, maybe something minor to help prot grab mobs on pull, or a larger area, maybe a very minor short aoe slow, but something to add flavor and maybe a slightly altered sound/visual on landing. Seems like an easy flavor/visual opportunity on a often used ability.
Hero Talent design, by pairing up and connecting two existing specs, is cementing the fact that there will be no additional specs added (read: no additional support specs) … not sure why no one else is noticing this
Because those things are not necessarily connected?
Why would that prohibit them?
What would prevent them from just arbitrarily making 1 of those work for another spec too at worst?
They said Hero talent would be evergreen which means we will probably have more in future expacs.
I don’t think they said they would always make them dual spec either.
It probably is this time around so that if one Hero spec is massively unpopular, you at least get another option.
Beside, they JUST tested a support spec this expac and not even from the beginning.
Don’t you think they would wait at the VERY LEAST another expac before thinking of adding other similar spec?
Because if they drop this and it’s a massive flop and they already started the next expac with those in mind, you kind of shot yourself in the foot, you have no leeway.
If Arms Warriors are going to complain about Colossus this much, can you please swap it with Mountain Thane so Fury can have it?
From a PvP perspective, Fury would really benefit from Demolish’s anti-CC mechanics because we already don’t have access to Bladestorm or Warbanner
It’s really disappointing to find out that both of Fury’s hero talent trees will feature Thunderclap and Execute - spells we don’t currently value because they don’t mesh with our kit. (We don’t spread Rend, we don’t even want to drop a talent on Thunderclap, Execute doesn’t interact with Enrage/Battle Trance/Slaughterhouse.)
But Demolish just has Fury spec fantasy written all over it
Mountain Thane I get, but where is the Blademaster instead of Colossus? The Hero class from WC3.
Instead of Slayer, how about Soldier or Barbarian or Berserker?
Shockwave seems like an odd choice to build a few new talents around. Slam on the other hand. Theres a wasted opportunity.
You could have this tree buff slam, having it end with the capstone turning it into a finishing move that does mad damage. Maybe a multi part attack animation that feels awesome.
