And one of the team leads from back then has the magical gift of hindsight and regretted having made the changes to AV.
Also, there you go ignoring the participation != enjoyment thing.
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I ignore no such thing. It was changed in an attempt to get more participation, by way of making the loot easier to get.
One of… yeah it was changed in vanilla because it was bad. It had low participation because it was bad.
If you choose to ignore the reasons it was bad that’s on you.
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Well no it was changed because it overly emphasized pve over pvp in a BG and a BG that lasts for days is just stupid.
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It was changed not because it’s original intent was pvpve, but rather that it needed to be sped up due to the cancerous introduction of MoH acquisition.
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Maybe, or maybe 1.5 AV just wasn’t very good. I would love to see 1.5 AV offered side by side with 1.11 AV so we could see what people actually enjoy. But at the end of the day we know people didn’t really like 1.5 AV.
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Odd that pretty much every poll shows a preference for early AV. I guess you have other evidence to support your claim to the contrary. At the end of the day we know that there are many (I would be willing to concede it to be most players) who do not like any iteration of AV and were simply welcoming of it being made into a fast-mode MoH piñata.
There are also the overwhelming majority of players who did not raid, yet desired the raid gear. Does that mean that despite most not liking raids yet wanting the gear, should raids have been nerfed and neutered as AV was to cater to those people so they could more easily get the gear they wanted without having to spend long stretches of time and preparation and commitment to raid? By Ion/Lore’s magical enjoyment metric, raids were not “popular” and most people didn’t "like"them.
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What poll? That doesn’t reconcile with what actually happened in vanilla.
Ion and Lore were not lead devs in vanilla so what do you call raids like ZG and AQ20. Clearly participation was always a major factor.
You have to look at why people weren’t participating in content and how that was resolved. In vanilla and for example AV the content was just bad so they improved the content. Ion is incapable of admitting to bad content so he just tries to force people to do it.
If you cannot be farted to actually read the numerous threads in which you’ve argued against early AV, I am not going to go back and link it again so you can ignore it again.
The poll is based on hindsight. I know, it is a far out concept for someone like you. Actually judging something by how it was in the past. Much better to just forget history and repeat it out of ignorance.
What’s your point? I am speaking about raids in general. EXISTING raids were not nerfed/neutered so that casual players who do not like raiding could get the gear with less investment of time/effort/commitment.
Nothing at all needed “resolved”, and you again ignore the other factors that have repeatedly been listed that attributed to less people playing AV in the early days.
[citation needed] as usual.
Well, yeah. I would go as far as to exclaim “duh”.
How many times does “Participation != Enjoyment” have to be repeated before you link it to 1.12 AV?
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I loved the original long AV. This was pvp raiding. Now it is just pvp and it is unbalanced because the mobs are a joke and the layout is an advantage to one side. It took all the hard hitting mobs to balance the layout. If blizzard doesn’t have that I don’t know how long I will play endgame. I have done most of the raids in the past but AV was always my favorite place to play.
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I used to have so much fun in the old AV. Epic weekend long battles, returning home from work/school to continue the fight, waking up the next day to queue for that BG again to finally win.
The current live AV is just terrible. Everyone just runs past each other and it turns into a PVE race.
What i miss in AV is looting bodies, returning the loot to spawn waves of guard to help advance your front lines because that was the ONLY way to do so. I also loved summoning the large bosses to help break the front lines.
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Ya old AV was great.
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sorry OP, but this is client 1.12.1
I only played the True AV once back in Vanilla. It was honestly the most fun time I had in Vanilla(didn’t play much back then). Current AV is a snorefest, it loses its appeal quickly.
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First off, I would agree with you on both counts. However, the AV we’re getting isn’t “current AV”. And I’ll more than happily take a less than perfect AV if it means I get the other 99.99% of classic too.
Right on.
Old AV was SO much fun. The version present in retail is an embarrassment… Barely a shell of what it once was.
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You clearly don’t understand human nature.
The incentive with retail AV is to expressly avoid PvP, that’s what is incentivized.
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We’re not getting the retail version though, we’re getting the version pre reinforcements.
You are not alone. Original AV is perfect end-game content for guys with jobs and kids.
If the Beta has shown us anything so far, it is that we need more NPCs that hit harder, not fewer with less HP. People know how to gear, we have Discord, ect.
1.12 is going to be a pve race after about a month - not sure why they are cutting out iconic content.
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Blizz really needs to start looking at what made Nostalrius so successful, and it wasn’t a perfect 1.12 release. Progressive content and content that was iconic to vanilla.
So what if the pvp rank grinders won’t queue up for AV? There are two pure pvp BGs available to them and there’s no reason to gut something special and unique for efficiency. That’s exactly what we’re trying to get away from.
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