11.0.5 Paladin feedback

In Development The War Within Patch 11.0.5 PTR
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I don’t want to go too far off the reservation here as the best feedback for this patch is class tree feedback, but last night and this morning I did my first arena of the xpac, and so I do have thoughts on Ret PvP.

I think you exaggerate a bit, Zaim, when you say that paladin has no identity and that it’s the squishiest class in the game. Numbers are wildly imbalanced in PvP right now with some specs like Unholy dealing 50% more damage than everyone, while Ret design should probably, but doesn’t atm, place Ret on the high end of pure damage numbers. We’ll have to keep an eye out for hotfixes over the next couple weeks.

To dig a little deeper into identity, 20-yd finishers feel fine and good to me, don’t think there’s any issue there. I agree Rebuke should have a 10-yd range; this can be added to (or replace or whatever) Punishment in the class tree. My personal gripe with identity is that Ret’s off-healing sucks in PvP, but then again we may not want to be balanced around having good off-healing since it’s not useful utility anywhere dampening stacks quickly.

In regard to survivability, I don’t think that Ret is that squishy, but I also think 10% Divine Prot is likely due an oversight rather than a conscious nerf on the devs’ part. I’m also, after all these years, finally starting to come around to the idea that Divine Shield should be off the GCD. Ret has a lot of survivability and utility buttons on the GCD, which feels awful early in an xpac with low haste, and moreover it’s just dated when you look at what’s off the GCD for other classes.

So, this is what I think Ret needs:

  • A PvP tuning patch for all DPS specs
  • Perhaps 20% DP and Divine Shield off the GCD
  • 10-yd Rebuke would be nice
  • Updated PvP talents
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They have definitely been making some better changes to how prot flows in TWW after the whiplash from Shadowlands to DF (especially after the ret rework changed so much). Overall in pvp they’re getting back to a playabale spot and I agree with a lot of what you listed. Part of the issue is I know they were a problem in M+ so they had to tone down the healing/mana but it’s a non problem in pvp. Even in shadowlands when Prot was at it’s strongest in most recent times the spec wasn’t an actual issue on the meta. Closest I’d call it was a noob killer in that it could knowledge check you very hard. I played it to 2.6 in 2s and 2.8 in 3s during SL and even 2.4 in 3s in DF. I have my theories on why they nerfed prot but the biggest one I stand by is they’re catering to the lowest effort players who complain it’s unfun instead of learning. If they can fix up some bugs like the Queens one with prot I’m feeling excited for where it’ll land in 11.0.5.

One last thing is I would like there to be some agency in their damage ability. The avenger’s shield single target talent change feels terrible still in pvp because now you have no impact on when it bounces if things are around it. You also don’t generate holy power which still feels terrible. SotR hits like a wet noodle as well without all the modifiers and even then it can be alright.

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People didn’t like that one because it was very conspicuous for how much damage consecrate actually does. It made it hard to see the floor underneath it. (For a similar reason people loathed the Night Fae DK ability, and they had to make it practically invisible to everyone but the caster)

Ashen Hallow in SL used this animation, which made sense because it was a massive cooldown.

Consecrate really does need a facelift though. I’m not sure that this is the one it should get.

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would be nice if consecrate was like the ones used by the mobs in the priory
you see it, you want to move out of it. it should hurt
right now, you can totally ignore it

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I agree to an extent, but I don’t wanna exclude Ret or PvP feedback, most notably because Blessing of Spellwarding is being removed in this patch, as of right now.

I think that’s a really powerful ability to lose, and the reason why it’s concerning is because of how Dampening and MS effects have recently rendered our other heals “useless.” (using that word loosely)

Ret Paladins last season did not spec Healing hands, due to how underwhelming and costly our WoG is, and the strength of LoH really falls off the later a match goes.

So having to go off the information right now and DP not being buffed, etc…

How squishy Ret feels is yet to be seen in “competitive PvP,” but historically healing has never been a great reason for a DPS spec to be viable…

(SL Ret/Warrior/Druid for example)

I will admit I may exaggerate it a bit in my posts, :sweat_smile:, but I truthfully do think Paladins do have an identity crisis, that’s not being solved by talent customization.

  • I can log in right now and do a SS as Prot, but only be queued into other Prot Paladins because I’m not a tank, healer, or support.
      • Protection Paladin can only queue into matches against other Protection Paladins in Solo Shuffle and are automatically put in the “healer” role. This can lead to potentially longer queue times depending on how many other Protection Paladins are queueing up. They are the only spec. in the game with this type of rule.
    • (https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/paladin/protection/pvp-overview)
  • I can link a video right now, bit dated, of Venruki giving a tWW tier list, stating Ret Paladins should be categorized as a range spec. (Streamers/tier lists are w/e I get that too, but it’s just a “don’t take my word for it” moment, ya know. =/)
    • If Blizzard stated we are a “melee-based” class, but the community considers us Range… where’s the disconnect? What changed?
      - https://youtu.be/6EVQshNdirg?t=1984

I don’t think Paladins are in a dire state, I think they are viable in most content, I just feel like currently they are unfun to play because they have no expression outside of damage and healing… and anyone can bring damage and healing. =/

Edit:

In the case of Ret, I always suggest playing a few SS or Brawls without specing Jurisdiction and feeling out how fun it is to play, how viable it feels. If Ret’s viability and value is kindof based around that talent, what does that say for the rest of the spec? The core design? Jurisdiction, itself? (IE; should it be baseline, etc…)

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Ugghh… I just joined the PTR to see what is going on with Holy and I am really disappointed. Every since Vanilla I wanted to play a holy paladin as a melee healer. After playing a little with the my spec in the live game, I was really liking the direction of Holy. But it appears that Blizzard is now backtracking… This may be unpopular and may not be the greatest mathematically, but I like it:

I took pretty much every talent that effects Judgment. Particularly “Righteous Judgment” and “Judgment of Light”. Then I took “Golden Path”, “Seal of Mercy”.

This causes an area around the target where melee are receiving heals from both Consecration and Judgment of Light. It’s a beautiful thing :joy:

I would totally spend another point in “Righteous Judgment” to increase it to a 100% chance. Even if it was deeper into the talent tree. In fact I wish there was a branch to the talent tree that focused on melee healing.

Another cool idea would be some sort of mechanic that causes an AOE healing effect to radiate out from my target when I strike it with Crusader Strike while “Judgment of Light” is active.

Also, I agree with all the other people about the talents that are being forced on us.

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edit (9/19): Ret PvP is NOT in fact losing Spellwarding.

Losing Spellwarding will be a massive nerf, but it would have been super broken with Light’s Revocation, and perhaps losing it can create space to improve Ret in other areas. I can’t believe Ret is down to 8 PvP talents, and some of them are really useless — the fact that Luminescence gets used in arena says it all.

Regarding Rets not using Healing Hands at the end of DF (and perhaps now, I haven’t really checked), I believe that was mostly in shuffle, which makes sense when you think about it.

I see what you mean about Prot having an identity crisis in PvP, but I don’t agree at all with that take that Ret functions as a ranged spec in PvP, not even close imo.

Ret expression in PvP since DF has largely been blessings and LoH, which is 5 very impactful spells. I think WoG and FoL should come back into the mix by undoing their PvP modifier nerfs somewhat, but I’d prefer we don’t go too far in this direction because it’d be detrimental to put all of our eggs in the healing basket.

FoJ’s nerf and the addition of Light’s Countenance are massive changes as well.

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Yeah… in skirmishes and lower rated play this would be extremely toxic, but playing a Paladin for 20 years it’s always been annoying to have someone else be upset after losing a duel because I used LoH, BoP and Bubble.

They were upset because they lost to an “OP Paladin” while I was upset that I had to use three 5 min+ cooldowns just to win, lol. So, whose the one that’s really broken? :wink:

I don’t think Forbearance should exist at all in 2024 WoW, mainly because the unfun experience it can create between multiple paladins in any group, or aiding a Paladin Tank, but I have always had a stance that BoP and BoSpellwarding should be updated for “modern times.”

Forbearance, and these new Class Tree Talents just feel like an unnecessary “Class Tax.”

I’m specing _________ Talent, not because it’s interesting, but because there’s another paladin and I don’t want to be annoyed or griefed… (if this wasn’t a PvP issue, this would be similar to the Neural Silencer, lol)

The identity issue is for sure less of a problem for Ret than Holy or Prot. Ret I would love to see more creativity in Divine Toll and the final capstones, and some more “Fire” in the fire build…

…but the PvP Talents are extremely underwhelming, and that’s where I think a lot of Ret’s “Identifiable Strengths” are lacking.

Where is our:

  • Shroud of Winter / Delirium / Reanimation
  • Death from Above / Shadowy Duel
  • Rain from Above / Blood Moon
  • Shadow Rift / Summon Observer
  • Divine Accension / Psyfiend / Mindgames
  • War Banner / Battlefield Commander
  • etc…

As a casual 2400 rated player, it just feels lacking.

Yeah… and that’s were I’m really curious, right.

I’m losing BoSpellwarding, and I will once again sit in Fears and Sheeps while on a pony, or be dispel spammed when casting my Blessings … only to die 40 yards from my target.

That’s my identifiable weakness… what’s my identifiable strength? lol

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Did I miss a patch notes line? I see it’s not on the list on the PTR, but I haven’t seen in listed as being removed anywhere in the notes. Hilarious to take that away so we have even less utility vs casters. BOP is also worthless vs a few classes just from dispelling it alone.

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They are also removing spellwarding from Ret? Jesus at this point why not just set our 3 pvp talents since we can’t have anything to choose.

They need to double down on every weakness on Ret i guess. No mobility, every major CD dispelable, weak heals, forbearance limitation, and of course must be useless against any caster.

I won’t even bother with Ret for pvp anymore, it is clear that they don’t want the spec to be above avarage in pvp. Thank god i saw this miles way on alpha and beta and decided to focus on my War and DK instead.

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This is not a case of “maybe , perhaps”

Unnerf divine protection. 10% is literally nothing and you can be run to the ground by a fury and dk easily.

Buff templars healing, herald has so much healing is not fair you want to force everyone to go herald. Sacrosanct needs all its healing values doubled at least

Unnerf wog ffs. WoG costs MANA AND HP. If its meant to be a limited healing because of mana, it needs to move healthbars, if its to remain pure hp then it needs buffs anyways because its absolute trash. How many screenshots do I need of dks warrios dhs druids shaman dou bling my healing?

Forbearance needs to go

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Forbearance is sort of dated, mostly because it makes grouping with other paladins feel bad, but it’s hard to get rid of. I don’t agree with the point I think you’re making that it only exists due to skirms and duels.

Having a second trinket for your healer on half the CD of his own trinket is an example of an identifiable strength. Ret was incredible in shuffle during DF. Nothing fundamental has changed with the spec, so how can it be argued that our “identifiable strength” is suddenly non-existent? Ret isn’t great in PvP atm, but I believe that’s due to a tuning issue rather than some fundamental flaw. The only place where Ret PvP is fundamentally flawed is 2’s (I haven’t tried Blitz yet so I can’t comment on that).

I haven’t seen it covered in a patch note either, first I heard about it was when Zaim mentioned it. He’s right that it’s no longer on the Wowhead’s PTR talent calc, but now that I check it doesn’t show up on Wowhead’s live talent calc either. Maybe we jumped the gun here. PTR servers are down atm so I can’t check.

I could have worded that better: 20% DP and perhaps Divine Shield off the GCD.

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This talent is indeed still on the PTR and talent calculator. It might have been an oversight that it was missing or removed.

At least for Prot pally pvp, WoG healing using the new pvp talent Bear the Burden feels absolutely miles better than it has been. I can keep dps and stay in combat without running out of mana. This may encourage more HP generator talents. But I feel it’s worth it considering it helps our self-sustain.

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I’m sure it’s still there in the Prot tree, but have you seen it in the Ret PvP talents?

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AFAIK, it was made prot exclusive with the launch of War Within. I thought this was known to the community.

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Ret still has it in on live as a PvP talent.

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Havent gone into the ptr in days but crusade didnt work either. Iirc crusade appeared as removed in the datamined patchnotes… and when talented on the pte crusade straight up didnt work. The pat h notes also mentioned sanctified wrath bonuses per spec and that hasnt been added to the trees

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So spellwarding was removed for ret due to Spellbreaker being added as a pvp talent. The tradeoff being when your defensive is up, you deal damage back at magic users passively.

There’s a lot talents right now that are bugged. Currently, Queens isn’t working pretty much at all for Prot in PvP. It fails to go off on any ally I use it on. I suspect not enough tickets have been put in from the pally community as a whole.

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Is that really why spellwarding is gone? Or you are assuming? Because in no world does that pvp talent ever see play unless you tell me eye for an eye does lethal damage it wont stop people from hitting you during your 10% dp… lol

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Blizzard has outright said that’s why. But spellwarding was removed. And in its place ret received Spellbreaker as a replacement seemingly. Though as I do look over all patch notes as they were released each time, I do notice a lack of any mention of removal. This very well could be an oversight.

That would be par for the course with War Within.