11.0.5 Paladin feedback

In Development The War Within Patch 11.0.5 PTR
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Oh, then that is my bad, I apologize. I heard from Vanguards it was removed, then saw it gone on WoWhead, but my argument is that “what if” factor.

If Blessing of Spellwarding and Bubble (+ Light’s Revocation) prove to be too strong, and Blessing of Spellwarding is removed because of it, where does that leave Ret Paladins? What should they get in return, etc…

I don’t think it exist solely for that level of play, just stating I could understand if a lot of lower skilled players would be frustrated at Paladins going BoSpellwarding → Bubble.

10 seconds of immunity or so would be extremely hard for players of that caliber to counter, but imo, that’s just more of a reason for both BoP and BoSW to be redesigned. =/

Personally, I think there’s two reasons:

  1. Because others have gotten “more” in tWW that devalues what we bring.

    • Hunter with 2 defensives
    • Evokers being able to “blink”
    • Death Knights with Death Chargers
    • Warrior self healing buff
    • Shaman defensive totems
    • etc…

The overall “value” of BoF and BoSac continues to go down with the overall power creep.

Even yourself mentioned updating Steed to do “more or something better” then even what these new 6 talents are doing in this PTR. These spells, imo, still feel very dated.

  1. Because other classes still have “defensive” utility that’s often overlooked in value because PvP Bias. (Again, imo =/)

BoSanc is an amazing ability, I don’t deny that one bit, but…

  • My Warrior has Disarm and War Banner
  • My Evoker has Time Stop
  • My Rouge has Disarm
  • My Monk has Disarm
  • My Demon Hunter has Reverse Magic
  • My Mage has Mass Invisibility
  • My Shaman has Grounding Totem
  • etc…

All of these classes have powerful defensive utility, but still offer spammable CC, MS, purges, multiple stuns/cc, whatever…

Edit:

My personal feedback, I’d gladly take a -15sec hit on BoSanc if it meant I got Blessing of Might, or whatever my Death from Above, Shadowy Duel, Sharpen Blade, Shamanism, etc… equivalent is.

83

Hold on where can I read that? The 11.0.5. dev notes only mention wrench evil as removed

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I’ll just check whether or not Spellwarding is still a Ret PvP talent once the PTR is back online, no use speculating any further until then.

@ Zaim
It could be that Ret didn’t get as much utility from its hero trees, but I still think it’s more of a tuning issue. To use DK as an example, I think if you swapped our damage with theirs, our viability would swap as well. But this discussion on live PvP balance is actually kind of moot because paladin is going to play so different after the patch.

As for Steed, the problem is less of a balance issue in my view than about making the effect match the graphic and the talents compelling. I get a sense that you don’t really love blessings, but I do. They’re powerful, do just about what you’d expect them to do, and at least some of their follow-up talents are compelling. Blessings are not a part of the class that needs much work, whereas Steed still feels like Sprint with an over-the-top graphic.

I’d prefer not to further compare paladin utility to the utility of other classes because that’s an endless tunnel. I’ll only make a couple more posts, first to clear up whether or not Spellwarding is still a Ret PvP talent on the PTR, and then to give my final thoughts on the class tree. Then I’ll try to go in blind to whatever changes are made between now and the patch. Sometimes I get so caught up in WoW news and feedback that I forget to play the game. I skipped TWW beta, which let me tell you was a great choice.

85

No, not at all. I love Blessings, Auras and Seals and want to see more of them added to the game for flavor and fantasy.

It’s just taking the Class and game as a whole, that I feel this way about Blessings.

  • Go look at Ret Raid (and Delves & Open World) Builds and they don’t take Auras or BoP, and they haven’t since DF. I think that’s a problem that needs to be solved.
  • I think Blessing of Spellwarding, BoP and Bubble are too strong at low rated PvP play, but almost ignored at high rated play, and that’s a problem to be solved.

Those two issues in combination, lead me to believe BoP/BoSW needs a modern redesign. Still kept in name, fantasy and flavor but brought up to the modern state of raiding/mythic+/pvp and maybe delves.

If we add Steed to the list, I agree 100%.

  • Steed Redesign, yes.
    • This may include BoF/Unbound, Judgement of Justice and Jurisdiction for balancing purposes.
  • PvP Tuning, yes.
  • DP buff, and Bubble off the GCD, absolutely.

However, when it comes to the range on abilities and the PvP Update, that’s where my questions lay.

  • 10 yard range on Rebuke
    • Yes, but with the added question of; if Rebuke and HoJ both get, say a 10-14yard range, what’s the point in excluding just Auto Attacks and Crusader Strike at that point?
    • is that “clunky” game play worth the ~5-10% damage? (w/e tunning is)
    • Melee vs “caster” what are we holding onto at this point?
  • PvP Talent Update, again absolutely.
    • I’m Just asking;
    1. What’s the “Design Role” a Paladin is meant to play in PvP?
      • Where does the “Defensive Hybird” fit in, in modern day WoW?
        • Again, keeping in mind Time Stop, War Banner, Mass Invis, Grounding, etc…
        • Have we lost our “niche?”
    2. Are there some offensive Blessings (cooldowns) we could get?
    3. Are there some offensive Seals (MS, Nercotic Wounds, Purge Procs?) we could get?
    4. Are there some offensive utility we could get? (Teleports, knock backs, knock downs, etc)

Edit: And I’ll just make this my last post as well. :sweat_smile:

In the case of Ret, I know this is a long list and a lot to ask, I just enjoy this hobby I’ve played for 20 years, lol. And the design just intrigues me because right now it feels like Paladins are half a class.

  • Is there a better Talent arrangement that could be done for the middle of the Ret Tree?
  • Is there a better feel that could be done for the Holy vs Radiant Build?
    • Any updates in visuals and effects? Changing how abilities look, sound and feel?
      • Death and Decay vs Defile
      • Death from Above vs Dispatch
      • Purge the Wicked vs Shadow Word: Pain
  • Are there any creative designs that could be done to Divine Toll and our Capstones to make them feel a bit more unique?
    • Essence Break vs Fel Barrage
    • Dimensional Rift vs Soul Fire
    • Incarn vs Convoke
  • Is there a world where Jurisdiction vs Heavenly Strength exists?
    • Melee vs Range, etc…
    • What’s the level of customization a Paladin is allowed to have? Could we pushed that limit?
  • Is there a world where Auras feel more like Druid Forms?
    • Update visuals, etc
    • Shadowform, Lightning Shield, Rogue Poisons, Runeforging, Weapon Imbues, etc…
  • FoL vs WoG
    • What’s the goal to the Paladin healing toolkit?
      • Should we have everything or should there be harder choices?
    • Selfless Healer vs Healing Hands, Light’s Celerity vs Guided Prayer
  • What’s the goal with Divine Steed?
    • Divine Steed, Cavalier, Divine Spurs, Steed of Liberty, Lead the Charge, Unrelenting Charger
    • How many talents are too many?
    • Should some of these be PvP Talents? New PvP Talents?
  • Is there a world where Blessing of Protection and Blessing of Spellwarding are updated?
    • What limitations does this put on the design of the Class or even game as a whole, and is it worth it at this point?
  • Does the current iteration of Paladins in PvP match your idea of what a Paladin “should be?”
    • How squishy they are…
    • The range on their abilities…
    • Being kited/cc, effects of Blessings and pony, etc…
    • If there’s been on overall shift in the game because of other classes’ updates… then are there PvP Talent designs that could be introduced to help shift Paladins into more of a tanky support role or an offensive role?

What playstyle aligns with your goals and are they being achieved? :smiley:

(Alright, sorry I’ll stop now, lol.)

1 Like
86

there is a simple fix for this
remove spellwarding
change improved blessing of protection to give 2 charges of divine shield and allow it to be cast on allies
remove the silly talent that allows divine shield to be cast with forbearance active, but make it so that when an ability which causes forbearance is dispelled, forbearance is removed as well
if they really want this mechanic of ignoring forbearance, it should be attached to lay on hands

thus you could use divine shield, get mass dispelled, cast it again. a 7 minute CD trick vs a 2 min CD mass dispell is still a bad trade, but it would allow paladins to actually use divine shield as an immunity instead of a glorified CC break

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" * Fist of Justice has been redesigned – The cooldown of Hammer of Justice is reduced by 15 seconds."

Edit:

This is technically a nerf for some builds, but if it’s baseline 45 then a -15 reduction with talent it should be fine. The pros of stuns or cc impacting the CD reduction is probably better for consistency this way.

88

I don’t wanna not respond and be rude, but I don’t wanna spend much more time on this cause I tend to ramble…

I don’t think Forbearance should exist at all, or these new talents that revolve around it, because I think it’s a dated design. It’s an unnecessary Class Tax that no one else has to adhere too.

And the strength of LoH+Bubble isn’t as OP as it once was 12 years ago, especially with what every other class has now-a-days…

But even if you think LoH + Bubble would be powerful, as you mentioned here… it’s a 7min cooldown trick… it should be powerful.

And it’s not like Bubble doesn’t still have counters.

(Compared to Void Swap into Dispersion, Ice Block Heals, etc…)

I’m all for redesigning BoP and BoSW has I think that also removes the need for Forbearance imo.

However, Blizzard could also add Choice Node talents that allow you to select different Blessings instead, that maybe don’t cause Forbearance. I think that’s a reasonable middle ground.

This is a bit separate, but just to add it here, to not add more posts.

If we take Holy Paladins for example:

  • Earthen Wall Totem = Rapture = Blessing of Sacrifice
    • 1-2min cooldowns
  • Sprit Link Totem = Power Word: Barrier = Aura Mastery
    • Raid Wide Defensive
  • Healing Tide Totem = Pain Suppression = Blessing of Protection
    • 3-4 min cooldowns

Which one of these abilities cannot be used on the tank? lol

Again, the issue with Paladins is that the Highs don’t match the Lows, the weaknesses, aren’t offset by the strengths.

But I’m done wasting everyone’s time here, hope ya’ll have a good weekend. :sweat_smile:

89

i was referring to something different, i’m sorry if i wasn’t clear.
in short, 2 charges of divine shield, still causing forbearance so they cannot be used back to back, but forbearance removed when mass dispelled, so you can use the second charge immediately after. each charge 3.5 min cd, MD has 2 min cd. so the trick i was referring to was burning 2 charges of DS every 7 mins to get in effect 8 seconds of immunity.

the LoH thing is separate. i’d rather it keeps the forbearance and flash of light/ wog get buffed. FoL is pitiful right now, 4% heal per cast before any reductions, absolutely miserable.

1 Like
90

So spellwarding is gone from ret on the ptr. What is that about?

Eye for an eye does 84k damage on full honor gear (before any versatility and passive drs) completely useless so that new talent is in no way a replacement for spellwarding. Any communication?

91

So the PTR is finally up so that I could check it: Spellwarding is still a Ret PvP talent. You must have misheard, Zaim, or the streamer was misinformed. Other news is that Auras of the Resolute is bugged and doesn’t teach Crusader Aura, and that Unbound Freedom does indeed work with Steed of Liberty. It seems to simply cast on the closest target (which I tested by moving between a couple players a few times), and it ignores city guards that can have spells cast on them directly (so it may ignore pets as well, which would be good).

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Just 84k, before dmg reductions? Lol with this low dmg maybe they should make it the new Ret aura instead, always active

93

Yesterday I logged in and spellwarding wasnt there. Even by blizzard standards it would have been an absolute travesty if they deleted spellwarding without warning. Thought id show up again.

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Yeah, I checked the PTR and its there. Whether it was a bug or mishap I’m not sure, and apologize for the miscommunication. However, it still doesn’t change my view on BoP and BoSW for Paladins as a whole, across the entire game.

I’d still like to see BoP redesigned or it would be nice to see another Blessing Talent on a choice node with BoP that:

  • Maybe didn’t cause Forbearance at all
  • Gave Ret some Raid Utility love
  • Gave Hpal some tank support love (can’t BoP the tank)
  • Gave Prot Paladin some better defining identity in their tank/support/healer role

As for “identifiable PvP strengths” I still don’t feel like Bubble, BoP/BoSW, (or even BoF) cover that check box, whether it stays or not. =/

  • Fighting a Demo Lock and being constantly micro CC’d is super annoying
  • Fighting a DH and having them jump around with 100% uptime is super annoying
  • Fighting a Frost Mage and always being snared and rooted is super annoying
  • Fighting a Shadow Priest and being spammed dispeled is supper annoying
  • Etc…

I don’t feel like any Paladin spec has that super annoying thing.

  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBzqelZsCss&t=145s

Example of Venruki playing a Evoker with unlimited Hovers and 90% slows, lol. It’s overpowered and may be nerfed, but that’s a strength…

For Example, if Paladins are meant to be an “Anti Melee Class”, it would be cool to have something like Faerie Swarm

30 sec cooldown, 5 second disarm. It’s a magical debuff so there’s counter plays and choices between dispelling it and our stun, etc…

If I’m anti melee, let me actually make melee miserable. :wink:

But admittedly, I’m a bias casual 2400 rated player, I’m not trying to provide the answers, just giving feedback that I do not feel intimidating on any spec of Paladin almost at all, whether its defensively or offensively.

And to ask if that’s a problem?

I’m done nerding out about this topic though, again have a great weekend!

95

You have a great weekend too, Zaim. Here’s my last post:

  • A Just Reward: If the devs are set on this being a heal, maybe it could cast a WoG (probably at reduced effectiveness) so that it hooks into things like Healing Hands. I’d find that a little more interesting.
  • Turn Evil: To reiterate, it won’t feel good to spend two points on situational CC, and therefore Wrench Evil / Stand Against Evil should be the baseline spell and node.
  • Punishment should also increase Rebuke’s range by 5 yds, and Divine Reach likewise should do a little something extra.
  • Consecrated Ground should snare enemies and heal allies. Remove all the junk about the larger radius (bake this into the baseline spell if you want) and Divine Hammer (this doesn’t need to snare).
  • Has anyone used Imp BoP since the launch of Dragonflight?
  • I find Lead the Charge boring for a final-gate Divine Steed talent.
  • What player is Worthy Sacrifice supposed to appeal to? Good players will want to manage their own Sacs, while Sac firing off automatically is bound to get less good players killed (it might work out for them if they were Templar and ran Bonds of Fellowship, but come on, they obviously picked Unrelenting Charger).
  • I’m not sure Holy Ritual belongs on such a central node.
  • There’s starting to be a lot of trap choice nodes in our trees. As Ret, the class tree has Afterimage, Quickened Invocation, and Worthy Sacrifice, while the Ret tree has Justicar’s Vengeance and Improved Judgment (to name a couple).

And that about covers anything I missed in my inital post on the class tree rework. While I realize this is a class tree rework, I have to say I’m surprised how few meaningful choices there are in the Ret tree, especially when you consider how recently it was reworked…

For example, if I were to try to fix Final Verdict / Justicar’s Vengeance, first I’d have FV simply increase the range of Templar’s Verdict (the proc can be removed because Herald and Templar both have procs like this; just buff them). Then, roll back all the changes made to JV over the years so that it’s once again a separate ability to TV, costs 5 holy power, deals 100% additional damage to stunned targets, and heals for the amount of damage dealt (all this adjusted in PvP by modifiers if necessary).

I really like the concept of Divine Hammer, but in the long term a better approach might be if, rather than be a separate ability, DH changed the way Divine Storm works so that we use TV in our AoE rotation while DS constantly drains holy power — a totally optional way to change the way Ret plays via talents! But in the short term, I think taking it off the GCD and perhaps balancing it around a 1-min CD would be more fun than it is now.

Judge, Jury and Executioner is another cool idea, but I think a dev ran out of time while working on it during the beta (the spell alert is especially bad, lol).

And most importantly, I really don’t enjoy stark “choices” between ST and AoE. Merge Execution Sentence and Final Reckoning into one ability somehow, and redesign Executioner’s Will and Divine Auxiliary so that they’re real options against other final-row talents. Divine Arbiter and Searing Light should be closer to a playstyle choice, and in a perfect world I’d love to see holy strike and radiant feel more meaningful.

And Ret PvP talents need work as well.

All that said, Ret is pretty fun to play.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this all turns out well.