works the same. essence just doesnt exist
So valor gets updated and we get 3 piece from valor?
correct. and current valor gets converted to justice. justice should also give better loot in phase 3.
Dragon soul changed the token system so it works like mop up to legion
Ah ok, yeah i didnt do Cata or Mop, i joined the Navy.
Yea all good. Dragon soul is probably the system you’re most accustomed to. All tokens are available in normal and heroic respectively, and you need the normal item tier to upgrade it. Valor only gives off-pieces.
So i did play legion, its where i got my cutting edges, but i literally cant recall how they did tier.
Maybe we’re just worse these days then because wowhead scraped warcraftlogs data and found that the “Pulls per Kill” on 10H versus 25H suggest that 10H is actually more difficult in most cases. This data is from early June, however, but still accounted for ~90,000 10-person kills vs ~37,000 25-person kills at the time – presumably by more-cutting edge folks than general populace that’s flowed through since then
The following fights had a higher number of pulls-per-kill on 10H compared to 25H, suggesting it’s more difficult on 10H:
- Halfus Wyrmbreaker
- Magmaw
- Omnotgron Defense System
- Chimaeron
- Maloriak
- Theralion and Valiona
- Conclave of Wind
- Ascendant Council
- Nefarian’s End
The following fights had a lower number of pulls-per-kill on 10H compared to 25H, suggesting it’s easier on 10H:
- Atramedes
- Cho’gall
Just search for: wowhead tier 11 difficulty data
That data would only be relevant if the exact same players did both.
All that says is that worse players do 10m, which makes sense.
For example this.
https://paragon.fi/node/589.html
The same people who did 25m first and 10m first go boss to boss and describe the difference.
That is for firelands tho but its basically the same argument being made here.
More space.
Less damage from boss abilities.
Far less health in comparison to the players.
Which is why they even said 10m was easier.
Skill level is extremely relative - it’s generally bad practice to compare against the top 1% as that’s not representative of the majority of the player base – that majority being the greatest affected by said complaints in the thread.
Less Damage / Health / More Space should™ always be a benefit but the mechanics of a boss and the comp of the 10-person raid group plays a massive part (e.g. 10H Nefarian).
Also on your link, it’s not so definitive in Firelands even from their summary – 10H has very strict requirements on harder encounters and that may not exist within your 10H group, making that all that more difficult/impossible.
Particularly this bit here:
Proper tuning has repercussions though, since class balance has a huge impact when you’re forced into two-heal and solo heal situations. And that’s not even a stretch – don’t be surprised if you see a druid solo healing Ragnaros 10 hc before this tier is over. Might or might not happen, but at least it seemed plausible enough. Try doing that with a shaman.
This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s. If the encounters are really hard, you’ll need a proper setup. Guilds shooting for a world first should always be expected to come up with one, but those below, the ones without alt raids, will be left hanging. If the encounters are tuned for the ‘average’ setup, guilds who can afford the optimal one will steamroll through them.
If we were really playing 10-man, we would have a close to optimal setup. Even right now, scaled down from 25 to 10, we would have about 14 players and 30-ish fully raid-capable characters. The difficulty and tuning we’re concerned about is for that scenario, not for the level where you’re simply enjoying the game with the hand you’ve been dealt.
Im not basing it off the top.
Im basing it off a balanced 10m getting all the buffs.
The only thing said is 10m is harder to be as optimized as 25m, thats basically all 10m has going for it thats bad.
The fights themselves are easier.
It is definitive if you look at the description of each fight.
They literally say the same things we say here when we compare.
10m has -330% health.
More room in 10m
Boss abiltiies do far less damage.
They’re also rotating people out often (particularly the last three hard fights) to meet optimum comps (presumably) looking at their “Our setup” – find me a group of everyday 10-person raiders that are totally cool sitting out for X bosses because comp requires it.
Numerically the fights are easier, no one is disputing that - it’s the comp requirements (which they even mentioned in reference to that “gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s”. That big gap is not good and is definitively saying that 10-man is more comp-reliant (e.g. difficult if your 10-person raid group doesn’t have that comp).
Thats the only argument that can be made is getting all the buffs in 10m is harder.
The fights themselves are easier
I feel like we’re just misunderstanding each other. Numbers-wise, space-wise, etc. yes the fights are easier comparatively.
Comp-wise they are not.
Comp = players and the players are, ultimately, what matters. If you’re asked to sit out every single Heroic Ragnaros 10-person kill because your character you happened to choose sucks for that, then you either have to be cool with that or you go elsewhere because you’re saved to that lockout. That is a terrible player experience.
Comparing loot 1:1 with 10vs25 is just folly because it’s not oranges to oranges just looking at raw numbers – it’s not quite apples to oranges either but something in between.
TL;DR 10H should have 3-pieces of loot. Who cares.
I agree they could add an item to 10m.
You talk about T11, but the link is about T12.
You can’t use 1 tier and apply it’s findings to another tier.
Got a link for T11? I’m genially curious.
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What they are saying is the same thing we are saying tho, if you read it per boss.
It has been the same arguments here.
I like how he just abandoned the thread after this. lmao
He disappeared faster than Hilary’s emails.
I put this in all these type of threads. Let us do 10 and 25 in the same week
No thanks.