10.2 Night Elf Thread

This is my main complaint with the tone of Kalimdor faction quests, especially night elf questing, and especially quests that involve the player’s allies dying. I’m fine with questing being a give-and-take, of having the other faction win against us as much as we can win against them. But I feel that the night elf questing experience collectively put far too much focus on the tragedy of events the player is too late or unable to stop, and focused far too much on losses that were only partially redressed in questing.

Like, for multiple Horde quests (and what I think is the better way to have tragic events in a game where the player is meant to have agency), the average theme was:
Go out to an outpost/frontier to fight your enemies → Ally dies in the fight/find ally’s body → slay the enemies responsible.

And all too many night elf quests had the flow of:
Go to what is supposed to be a safe area where civilians live → find ally’s body → 50% chance of fighting enemies responsible/50% chance of the responsible party being out of reach or not something that can be fought (like a tidal wave that already passed) → talk about how tragic the death and destruction is.
Taurajo is one of the few examples of this on the Horde-side, and I think the ongoing reaction that story causes is a testament to how much this kind of plot affects people.

The main issue is that there are too many of the latter in night elf questing, from the moment the player flies into Lor’danel all the way to the end of Ashenvale questing.

A large part of this is, I think, due to different visions and expectations for the two factions. The Alliance races are mostly settled in lands they have lived in for a long history - thus, when they are turned into questing zones that require enemies for PCs to fight, they’re written as a bunch of vulnerable civilians in danger of violence that they can’t defend themselves against; versus the Horde, who are more portrayed as settlers or nomads with a bigger focus on individual strength and whose civilians themselves are capable and prepared for violence. But a lot of night elf players, especially the WCIII fans, view the night elves as the latter rather than the former, and thus are upset by the pity party that too much of night elf questing is - since we players can see all the game’s quests, we can see all other depictions and grouse about why we didn’t get the existing one that we think would fit better.

And unfortunately for the Horde, Ashenvale is the last non-neutral night elf zone, and thus where a lot of players expected to pay off all that accumulated story debt - to get some grand, fulfilling ending that would make all that suffering worthwhile.

But Ashenvale is at best just status quo - the Horde is shown as occupying new areas all the way through the zone up to the Darkshore border, killing innocent (and possibly familiar) NPCs and sieging night elf civilian centers along the way, and the Alliance player… takes some, not all, of those areas back.
And stops there. Yay? At least more innocents didn’t die (at least until the next incursion, because the heart of the problem is never dealt with).
That’s it, shuffle on to the next zone. (And if it’s Stonetalon, get ready for another pity party where you get to fail and watch the innocents you’re supposed to protect die in front of your eyes. Woo, faction pride, aren’t we such perfect warriors?)

So all that accumulated frustration bubbles over, and leads to these eternal arguments here on the forums.

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Like talking to a wall that wants you to be upset.

You are wasting your time. Just block him and move on with your life.

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The problem is you are saying the attacking and killing Night Elves makes you feel accomplished. It makes you feel good.
The only circumstances where the Horde is attacking the Night Elves its when they are invading their lands without little to no provocations from a war they started. That is the context of the Horde attack.
So I ask myself what is it about the Night Elves that motivates you and makes you happy that they are being attacked on their own turf? How good did the BFA pre-patch make you feel?

I ask because what you are describing I have never felt playing either faction. It is alien to me.

I also play both sides as I said and everybody has issues, right now we have chosen one issue and one issue only. Let’s close the topic first before moving on anything else because otherwise nothing would conclude.

Honestly, I didn’t see the second part of your post, so I only addressed the first part. For different issues, we have to finish this first before talking about any other subject. Whether the Orcs or Trolls have issues isn’t really relevant when we are talking about how “respectable” of an enemy the Night Elves are.

What makes them so cool to fight against? They are always on the defensive and a losing defense at that. All their territories are destroyed and occupied by the other faction. They have lost on screen every conflict only to be given the Win prize after the expansion concluded. What is it about the Night Elves constantly being shown on the losing end that makes them such great targets for Horde players to find compelling enemies to mowdown in glorious battle? Have the Night Elves ever directly threatened the Horde? not really? Have they invaded their lands? I don’t think so unless we count ghostlands. What is it about the purple smurfs that makes them such great adversaries?

I applaud anyone that doesn’t want to discuss things in good faith to go ahead and do that. It saves us both tremendous amounts of time.

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It’s really funny to compare NE zone stories across faction lines. The Horde ones actively try to visibly show you how cool the NPCs around you are… Kadrak solo’s an Ancient by throwing an axe at it and breaks a siege with multiple ancients solo, with one Kodo.

Meanwhile on the Alliance side, NPCs like Gnarl, who can canonically wrestle Dragon Consorts into submission, don’t actually do ANYTHING but give you a quest and QQ about Ls taken. There’s 0 pretending one side isn’t given the same level of warrior hype they had in wc3, while the other is just a stock standard quest that makes you feel nothing about the lands, the people, or individuals.

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I feel like the only writers who saw the night elves that way left in the early days of WoW. Over the years, each new iteration of night elves has been portrayed as progressively more cute, kind, docile, and tree-huggy than the last, useful for starting plots because ‘look at those meanies hurting the peaceful elves!’. The night elves as vicious warriors seems to be only alive among old grognards on the forums, rather than in the game anymore.

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As if Nature werent the best example of savagery and viciousness while retaining beauty and harmony.

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There is a modern view of nature as “balanced” and “fair” and “good for everyone”. In folklore nature is more often seen as “cruel” and “arbitrary” and “dangerous”.

Can’t speak to the WC3 version. (Never played it.). The NE do seem to be attached to the modern view of nature.

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Oh, there’s one other topic I want to make sure to cover, about the night elves’ apparent toughness in questing:

One big issue is that the night elves are so homebound - they don’t have any real aggressive expansions into other zones… and therefore, all their defeats (necessary as antagonists to Horde players) happens on the night elves’ home turf.

Which bugs a lot of night elf players, because their home turf should be where they’re strongest, and how can they look tough when their enemies can easily and repeatedly barge into their homes and knock them over; and bugs Horde players because it looks like the night elf players want to be invincible, since that’s the only place the Horde really fights them and thus night elves not losing in Ashenvale means night elves not losing at all.

(Also, it makes things like the antagonistic night elves in Eversong/Ghostlands stick out like a sore thumb, because they do so little invasion of Horde lands that the night elf players are confused as to why the heck they’re all the way over there for such minor reasons when they don’t do the same elsewhere.)

I think that in a theoretical scenario like a world revamp where questing can be changed, the night elves should have more antagonistic presence in Horde or contested territories, so that they can have more losses there and less in Ashenvale itself. One idea I like is having some night elves purposefully aiding some Botani that infested a spring in the Barrens and/or the forest borderlands by the Mor’shan Ramparts, to prop them up to hurt the Horde. The Horde player can track down and defeat those night elves, righteously driving them out of Horde lands, instead of only fighting them in the night elves’ own home.

(I’d also want to split Ashenvale into 2 zones: the western one being the night elf heartland with no Horde presence, and the eastern one being the forest borderlands fully dedicated to the endless faction skirmish and more Horde content around Demon Fall Canyon/Grom’s grave. And as long as I’m on this train of thought, I’d expand the Barrens or Durotar a bit around Orgrimmar, so that the Horde capitol doesn’t butt up directly against a contested zone.)

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I agree including Voss was a mistake.

Should’ve been Faranell just blitzed off his rear on that Emerald Dream zaza, semi coherently rambling;

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So quick question.

We know Lilian Voss is present, as are some of the Forsaken Night Elves.

Are there like, any non-druid Alliance forces that came to help that we see in 10.2?

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Most modern peoples view of nature is shaped by their own experiences in parks or some other curated place that hasn’t had it’s normal apex predators present in more than a century. You aren’t going to see mother nature raw and unedited unless you really like the old National Geographic documentaries or are big into serious camping in places like Alaska or go hunting.

It’s funny when people find out that critters such as bears and wolves often don’t even wait until their prey is dead to start eating.

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Wc3 NE’s were more like older views of nature. They didn’t demonize it’s aspects that we, in present day, consider barbaric. In fact from wc3s lore, Ancients like the Ancients of War embody the evolutionary arms race and the brutality of the relationships of life and death that bind all living things. The dark aspects existed alongside aspects you can enjoy and revere.

Modern WoW in general reeks of an inability to process what nature is like outside of modernized places with no real ‘wild’ left.

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I was shocked when i moved to Europe from the tropics (SE Asia) and saw their idea of nature. Manicured parks, wildless monocultures of forests, pretty much devoid of wild animals that all went extinct/ endangered by hunting.

It’s funny when people grow tame garden plants inside the perimeters of their property and call themselves “close to nature”- sadly this is also the nature and druidism blizz has been pushing for years now.

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The terror in darkshore cinematic shows they still know there is a brutal side to nature, Tyrande also obtained the night warrior in a process that included an orc head.

But at the same time, the starting zone of the night elves back in classic or even the cata version sets the tone of what most people expect when it comes to night elves, which is something more soothing than dangerous.

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Yeah the only way to see what Europe used to look like anymore is to visit parts of North America and Siberia. Even then much of the wildlife is different, and some of them have no problems chomping down on you.

Heck even the forests outside of Seattle are really tame now with all the foot-traffic.

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Sweden and norway still have their old forests surely?

No, they have been tainted by thousands of years of human contact. The only Old World deciduous forests the least touched by civilization is in Siberia. The minimal undergrowth is the biggest sign of human management.

But they demonized it. They even went so far as to frame the act of reclaiming Darkshore as Vengeance, which has sinister or outright evil connotations in the setting. They aren’t acknowledging it as an innate thing of life or a violent fervor born of connection with their land and the will to protect it, it is shallow 'grrr rage, rage BAD!!"

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