They can hand over all of the Shaman and Catapult Users who actually partook in the burning to be executed at the least. They should especially mention such a thing having happened ingame.
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The problem with this is that Blizzard waited far too long. I dare say most NE fans would have been happy with some instance where we routed the remaining Horde Loyal to Sylvanas out of Darkshore and Ashenvale giving us the chance to fight and kill some random made up Evil Shaman or Catapult user. Doing it after the Darkshore Warfront would’ve been the perfect time.
To do it now would feel empty and out of place with all this renewal talk and could be considered a senseless execution.
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While it would feel odd to place that sort of event now rather than earlier, I think it’s still leaps and bounds better to add it now than not add it at all.
In fact, I think it could be helpful to add that sort of quest inside the “Renewal” arc (and I’m annoyed at Blizz for making me hate that word) - something to get those who don’t like the Renewal™ arc on board, by solving (as best one can in a two-faction game) the main roadblock to focusing on Renewal™: Namely, that the people who happily executed what Blizzard labelled a big-G Genocide are unpunished and able to do the same again. With them gone, or at least that arc addressed head-on and mostly resolved, it will be easier to focus on the Renewal™ arc. (For bonus points, make some of the NPCs from the vengeance-based quest be Warmode questgivers later, as a gameplay/story element to show that plenty of night elves haven’t given up the vengeance angle.)
Take this plot with Shandris and Lillian, for example. It would be a lot more palatable for Shandris to bond with Lillian over moving forward if we’d seen Shandris take care of the parties she felt to be guilty before the bonding scene.
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In Pandaria, ‘Patience, Tyrande’.
Because its off topic.
Both Night Elf territories being successfully settled and defended by the Horde.
If they were not pushovers they would be occupying Barrens, Durotar or Mulgore.
The headcanon is strong with this one.
Vanilla, when they lost stone giants, chimera, various types of ancients and were passive when the Horde was invading and settling eastern ashenvale.
The NEs are the reigning champs. The trolls? You mean Darkspears? They only lost Voljin and with the recent Zandalari addition may be them too but their loss pales in comparison to BFA’s NE losses.
Their lands are invaded and to this day still on fire…
They have been a joke for a long, long, long time.
Whoa there buddy with power fantasy. Now you’re unreasonable. Besides horde territories were already invaded by Alliance forces. So it made sense that Nelves were attacking from the north and if you didn’t notice Durotar and Barrens were attacked by forces from Theramore.
What headcanon? I recently dif quests in Darkshore to get things fresh.
What you’re talking about? Nelves always had ancients.
And Stone giants and chimeras I’ll give you that but it’s imo not that important aspect of their portrayal. I’m talking about people. Not their allies that could could change their mind later.
I’m talking about entire trollkind. And they got boot the moment elf empire grew to power. Narrative was always against them, even when they had clear advantage. There was aleays some made up deus ex machine to not allow them to win.
Their champions killed left and right, cities raided and looted and constantly looked down upon. Everythi g that have is for others to take and nobody cares.
Nobody cares even for playable ones.
Look even at the forums it’s all " elf, elf, elf, elf".
As for Zandalari I beg to disagree BfA damaged much more than meets the eye.
It’s bot just Rastakhan, Rezan and the fleet which was a big loos. Heck first two options were a crime to do, where these two dropped like flies the moment we met them. But Zandalar didn’t cover half of the stuff Zandalari were meant to have in lore and added some nonsense like Titan facilitirs, blood trolls, Sethrak to take away attention from them. But that is another story.
Not just theirs.
I disagree on this part, and I already elaborated on that.
You said that the Night Elves are the supremely powerful adversary and I have demonstrated they are anything but that since WC3.
If what you say was true then they would not be the ones being invaded and losing on every front.
Nobody got wiped out.
Tree of Ages, Ancient of Wind, Ancient of lore, tree of eternity, ancient of wonders and tree of life ancients are all missing.
The Night Elves in wow are severely depowered from their WC3 days with many things missing. They have existed in wow for no other reason to be punched by the horde for their power fantasy gratification or break glass solution for us to care about something.
We are talking about playable races, the entire troll kind is not relevant to the Darkspear.
With nonsense sure. You proved nothing of your original point and everything indicates the contrary.
No, I said they were respectful enemies, someone that is cool to fight against because they have the right attitude. Not UbEr PoWeRfUl that would stomp anything on their path. Which wasn’t even true back in Wc3.
They were, go to Darkshore and see the corpses. Everybody believed for years that tribe was totally exterminated.
Ancients of Lore were always there.
They were not punched at all until Cataclysm. And to be fair Nelves should have adversaries, because what would they otherwise do? Sleeping again?
But it is, especially now with the Zandalari and Sand troll skin. When you play as troll you wish to interact with other trolls and make them unite and grow, not be forced to take part in their downfall.
What nonsense? Just because you disagree with my take doesn’t mean it’s nonsense.
Especially when all this QQ refuses to take the bigger picture and see that not only them got shafted. Everybody was hit with something nasty that impacted them greatly. But you’d know that if you played both factions thoroughly.
I think there has to be some narrative respect for the fact that they’re a race/faction (since their forces arent just their own race, wc3 style with Humans and Orcs) whose parallel in the game they were introduced was space demons. Who in the missions you fought against them, were being hyped up as powerful, and we come to find out by playing them that they weren’t even at full power and didn’t have all their power houses present.
It’s a similar issue to the Draenei, though it’s arguably worse for -them- because their WoW versions in TBC were a massive shift from OG lore when the MMO already existed, so they should’ve been smarter about giving an OP race to a faction whose nemesis are beyond the scale of the opposite faction.
I don’t really understand what you’re saying.
Are you implying that Nelves were meant to be so OP that their true oponent should be burning Legion? And likewise with Dranei?
Oh so they are your favorite Horde punching bags. Always on the defensive and invaded, tickling that little need to feel cool and strong. Gotcha.
They were there in vanilla and they were there in cata.
I guess i will take your word for it, i dint remember any.
As I explained various things were taken from them and their lands settled. So the punching was off screen. When Cataclysm began the barrage of Horde fists began.
Canonically they are still Darkspear trolls.
Its nonsense because you are trying to equate Zulfarrak as some sort of punching bag experience of Horde players to the same as NE/Alliance players of constantly being written as the victim of the big bad cool Horde.
Who said they were the only one? I said the biggest, the ones that take center stage. We make a whole zone quest about how badly they lost or sad they are.
I have.
That’s not what I said lol. Can you please stop stawmanning? Whenever you play as Alliance or a Horde , you want to have interesting antagonists, people that fight back and makes you feel accomplished whenever you stopped them/defeated them. That’s one of the reasons why Vash’ir is one of my favourite questing zones BECAUSE we couldn’t beat them. Naga were overwhelming us, and we had to retreat. until we reached a fleet. On each step you knew you barely made any progress. And I miss that. It was immesive as hell.
When you played as Alliance it felt good to take down Horde, because you knew that they wouldn’t drop down on knees and cry their eyes out. That’s what I was saying. Your enemies have to fight back, they have to show that it won’t be easy for you.
It’s honestly universal thing.
That’s not what punching is, at least the way I understood and what I meant was that they weren’t really hit by any real disaster nor there were any real assaults on them that would cripple them significantly.
You can argue with me all day, but ask a troll fan and they’d tell you the same thing. If there are any left on these forums that is. Troll players care for all the trolls and they hate to participate in downfall of other trolls. They hate that they cannot prevent it, that they cannot help them, but have to watch helplessly how they’re even obliberated offscreen. Like it was in BfA and Dark trolls.
But for the sake of argument let’s stick to playable factions. Horde as a whole Lost a lot. They keep losing prominent characters, and it does damage their potential than any location in game. Town can be rebuilt, people relocated/reproduced. But I’d argue that if you’d kill off major charaters and essentially leave them with nothing, then you have a faction of nobodies, a shell of nation which is much more damaging than taking away a town. This is what happened to Darkspears in Legion, as Vol’Jin was the only thing they had going for them, the rest of the cast was nobodies. Orcs, constantly leaderless, reduced to canon fodder, Forsaken - I’d argue are the biggest losers from BfA. They might’ve scored damage with nelves, but in the end they came out worse than nelves did.
It’s my general impression from these forums.
That’s surprising. And your perspective doesn’t shift when you play as different team? Don’t you notice the problems that they also have?
Thats exactly what I said. Not strawmaning anything.
Night Elves getting invaded by the powerful Horde forces makes you feel accomplished.
Not really, all of our stuff is on fire, you put out the fire and then sent off to a hunting lodge that has been completely deforested, disarm a huge bomb then go to stone talon and watch a druid school blow up.
It was loss, after loss, after loss. Then a book comes out and we are told Alliance won.
This I agree with but its not the alliance killing these characters. Well except maybe Nathanos. If Alliance was killing major Horde characters left and right and they lost towns in the exchange you would be right. But what happens is Alliance loses locations or shown as losing stuff in graphic detail and then everybody hugs it out.
So no I dont see this as unfair exchange because there is none taking place. You mentioned Voljin, he died to Legion fodder, Alliance had nothing to do with it directly or indirectly.
My impression when playing the Horde, in faction conflicts is one of brutal aggressors. There is little to no justification to their actions and any semblence of a defense their victims can muster is defeated when I kill 8 out of 8 required mobs. I don’t feel this “worthy” adversary you seem to see because the cause isn’t worthy.
To me it felt pretty badass to basically halt every horde assault in ashenvale while questing there, saving astraanar, fending off satyrs as well.
In a game with 2 factions of opposite forces, you gotta win and lose, otherwide why bother? Night elves took big losses but also took wins, they managed to recover darkshore, ashenvale and more after BFA without having major support from the alliance
You didnt save Astranaar, you stopped one attack and were told to leave. The town was still very much under siege.
Night Elves are shown losses in-game and get told they won when the expansion is over. Either show both or show neither.
The Kaldorei have suffered from the Worf Effect for a long time. It is because of their power in WC3 that they keep getting cut off at the knees to prove how big and bad a threat the Horde is.
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It’s not really a faction balance power thing. A plot Bliz uses over-and-over is to have the antagonist stike a powerful blow and the plucky heroes then overcome the setback and prevail. So when they decided to villain bat Sylvanas. They used the same plot. Amplified by Afrasirabi wanting to destroy a city for the marketing buzz. Except you can’t really destroy a faction in a two faction game. So when you prevail, things have to go back to what they were.
I keep warning people that want Blizzard to treat the Horde as the evil faction. BfA is pretty much what you get.
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Yes you are. Because you said they’re my “favourite Horde punching bags” and it wasn’t what I said or implied. I said that they were cool when you fought against them, just like cool are Dark Irons, and Worgen, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t like them, or that I don’t sympathize with them. And likewise Alliance shouldn’t feel sorry when they fight the Horde. They should feel good when they attack them. I’m saying that our experiences should be reflected.
I was talking about YOU fighting Horde and if you’d like for them to provide “good fight” or if you’d if narrative painted them as helpless little crybabies? Because that’s what I meant the whole time. Good enemies are the ones who are hard to fight and give you sense of accomplishment.
I’m talking in general, I’m not blaming Alliance here or anything. If there is anyone I truly blame is the writers who wrote all of this. Which brings me to my revious point, that everyone gets shafted by said writers. In different ways. If there is smaller faction, like Darkspears. Losing one character is devastating, because said one character was pretty much everything they had - I mean yea you can take away Echo Isles too, but then they’d simply regress to their Vanilla-WotLK stage where they didn’t have starting zone to begin with. Main character gives you some sort of direction, aim to follow, when there is nobody in his place then that leaves us with one big question mark, as nobody then knows what to do next. Like a headless chicken. He left a void in his place with no real build up and ready replacement. Unlike Varian.
Let me ask you again the question. Because that wasn’t the answer.
And your perspective doesn’t shift when you play as different team? Don’t you notice the problems that they also have?
But given your response, I guess it should count as “No”.
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In my experience these have been mostly defensive incursions, usually the place is already destroyed or on fire and civilians dead. So I am not sure what I am supposed to feel “good” about.
What you are implying is that Night Elves are enemy you enjoy killing and putting down. Thats what I said and thats what you said. I don’t kink shame, you do you.
I thought you meant something else, but that’s clarified now.
Fighting the Horde does not give any sense of accomplishement because you begin the fight by already having lost. And whether I am killing a level 70 murloc or an orc there is no difference in terms of challenge.
There is not much in the Horde story that I find compelling. They are steeped in hypocrisy so its hard to take them seriously when I try to see things from their point of view.
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No I didn’t. You’re strawmanning. I already elaborated what I meant, and you still do that. I thought I made myself clear, but apparently I didn’t, or you’re one stubborn man.
What I took is that you have very warped approach, and that you won’t budge. I play both factions and I try to take the best out of them, and try to see issues both sides have. Not to only care about one side period. With that being said there is nothing wrong in being dedicated to “your side”, just saying that biases can cloud judgement. I try to look at each race separately, not just “team red/ team blue”.
Like talking to a wall.