Terror of Darkshore was all hype and zero susbtance. We just kept killing Sira, a victim of the forsaken.
Night Warrior disappeared for the whole expansion and nothing substantive came out of it. For an expansion with 3 amazing quality cinematics for Saurfang they could have given us a couple animations to the level of Terror of Darkshore at least about the Night Elves and the Nightwarrior at the height of the war.
But nope… we just got some promises and gesturing.
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It doesnt feel that way, to me it always felt like the perfect response to horde dominating darkshore.
In the end, they took it all back.
Followed by years of NPCs telling us how bad vengance is…
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I mean, it was a fair reaction and response.
But I think it’s really clear that blizz was trying to frame it as evil. It’s not subtle in the Anduin truce scene, it’s not subtle in her giving up things dear to her including a living being (when if anything, Elune’s power should require the opposite as the core fixture of their communal civilization), or all the talk about “VENGEANCE” in the patch. The closest thing to Wc3 NEs was in Malfurion’s dialogue that indicated he was gonna be an alternative leader to Maeiv, where he actually talks about unbreakable spirits and regrowth n junk. Which resonates far, far more with the beliefs of the Kaldorei, than the retconned Night Warrior who blizz turned into a Moon Demon Hunter.
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Something I don’t like about Shandris and Lilian story is the lack of continuity. In BFA and SL it was obvious that NE wanted nothing to do with Forsaken. In Shadow Rising we saw that Thrall relationship with Kaldorei leaders was cold at best. In the novel where Thallysra and Lor’themar were married, Night Elves didn’t take part in the ceremony.
And why, of all the characters, Lilian should be Shandris therapist? No Alliance NPC or Aspects, she has known for thousands of years. So what, if she stood next to Ysera throughout all SL. She really hasn’t talked to Tyrande in the last 2 years of peace?
Lilian even brought resurrected Night Elves, which was probably the worst move rn. A few years ago you killed, resurrected and brainwashed them, and now you bring them before their families under a new tree that is threatened by the fate of Teldrasill. Yikes.
I was hoped that al dark rangers presence focus on Delaryn wanting to return to her sisters. Instead of repairing broken relationship between divided Kaldorei, they chose forced friendship between victim and former tormentor. Why they don’t even try to make Forsaken more focused on reparing their relation? They could offer the heads of the nameless NPCs responsible for the Teldrasill-burning catapults as a show of godwill, or something. Instead, they showed themselves when Shandris had a breakdown and was most vurnerable. She’s in such a terrible condition that she will accept help from anyone, and just at that moment Lilian who stood by Sylvanas side until the last moment arrived.
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The best scene, IMO, that Tyrande had in a long time was the trial of Syvlanas. She was shown rising above the personal. Whether you think the judgement was too harsh or too light, the fact is that she was striving to do what was right and just.
At the best of time, vengeance is a mixed thing. In the end, it can never be anything but a negative. You see this in people discussing vengeance. The phrase “and eye for an eye leaves both side blind”, is an example of the counter view.
But the biggest problem with Tyrande’s vengeance was that it was selfish. There was plenty of other, even among her own people, who had suffered. Yet she had to be the one. She would work with others, she went off on her own. Meanwhile, back home, the people she leads were trying to rebuild.
But, of course, the story arc was all about her getting past that. Which is why the scene of her at Sylvanas’ trial was so positive.
Yeah. if you had asked me before hand what Alliance race would have the most objection to undead, I would have said the NEs.
Blizzard seems to be going with, “both sides have undead”. Not sure how they plan to let The Forsaken have their own stories going forward.
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Seems like a personal opinion on the morality of vengeance. And in this case, vengeance may as well have been justice
“Only justice will bring peace.”, quoting ATLA. We already saw that the night elf survivors wanted Sylvanas dead. You cannot live or sleep peacefully knowing the murderers of your people are still out there. Justice is half the equation as rebuilding is, to move on with your life.
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It is a common view in society. In the debate over how moral it is in our society, it is a mixed bag. A quick search pulled up a couple of places where it is a serious discussion point.
“www .philosophytalk.org/blog/morality-revenge”
“www .philosophytalk.org/shows/eye-eye-morality-revenge-1”
And I think this part of the point of the story.
[Note the space after “www”.]
You have missed the point that she put vengeance for herself first. “Sylvanas is mine”. She wouldn’t work with others, even in plans to being Sylvanas to account, she went off by herself. It as more important for her get vengeance than it was for it to come as quickly as possible."
And note, you bring in “justice”. A lot people would question whether vengeance is really justice. A fairly even-handed look at that is;
“www .psychologytoday.com/us/blog/evolution-the-self/201402/don-t-confuse-revenge-justice-five-key-differences”
And here also I think this was part of the point of “night warrior” Tyrande v. Tyrande at the trial.
Elathaah once again blaming victims. 
Always the fault of the victim to behave correctly and be the bigger person and look at the bigger picture. Because /Mymorals
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I’ve seen it argued that Lilian and Shandris are just individuals and them getting along shouldn’t be indicative of night elves and Forsaken as a whole doing so. And I’d normally agree with that if this were any other context, but here’s the thing: Blizzard doesn’t do nuance. They write societies as hiveminds following in perfect step with one or two big named characters and never deviating from that blueprint. If Shandris and Lilian are friends now that is absolutely an indication that night elves and Forsaken as a whole are supposed to be on good terms now, just like Katherine and Jaina getting over their personal issues made Jaina magically loved by everybody in Kul Tiras. It’s stupid but that’s how they write.
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That’s a nonsensical argument when both are major government officials of their respective people. They aren’t random civilians…
Yes, less so hivemind, but representation of an entire race where every action and word is spoken by the whole. If Thrall gets embarrassed then all orc kind got embarrassed by proxy.
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It makes sense that Shandris had to keep in touch with the forsaken somehow ever since the events of 9.2.5 where the darkfallen night elves would be welcome back to their society, some choose to remain horde of course like Delaryn, but since some came back, makes sense that some forsaken and night elves get to meet and talk since well, some night elves are “forsaken” in a sense now.
Lilian is also the one forsaken that was always on the opposite spectrum of Sylvanas, besides Calia and the Proudmoore brother, Lilian would be the one forsaken that could connect with a night elf.
I also think Tyrande’s judgment was clouded by vengeance, when She gave the sentence to Sylvanas, it was perfect, justice was served with Sylvanas spending maybe years or eons in the Maw while also achieving something good not just for the Kaldorei (since probably many of them have been in the Maw yet) but also every soul in the maw as well
Quoting Avatar makes even more sense what happened. Would be justice to simply kill Sylvanas with the night warrior power and then die consumed by its power? For sure it would be justice and it would bring peace.
But just like the obvious solution for Aang was killing Ozai, Aang found another way to enact justice. And with Tyrande was the same, she not only found a way to enact justice, but also in doing so she got a new tear of elune powered up by the winter queen and Kaldorei spirits to become maybe the first World Tree not corrupted since Nordrassil itself.
Thats just a given with the only people interacting with wow devs on twitter being dorks who are teary eyed thanking blizz for all this lame crap.
Sylvanas and the Seed are unrelated. One is not dependent on the other.
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The seed was made by elune and the winter queen using the night warrior power when Tyrande finally gave up searching vengeance.
The power that Tyrande would use to kill Sylvanas and kill herself is part of the power that made the seed.
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Is that what happened? That is very disgusting.
Why Blizzard felt the need to make this a transactional affair I can only speculate.
You know this makes me think of BG3, another game with different characters hellbent on Revenge. The game allowed you to take revenge, I don’t think it was even an option to let them live but the consequences of it.
Revenge isn’t supposed to feel good, it’s what is necessary. There was no court or jury needed just bloody justice and the rest is recovery.
Letting Gortash, Ketheric, Orin, Cazadore or Lorrakan live for some vague moral reasoning? Unthinkable.
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Tyrande wasn’t selfish. She represented the rage of her people. Night elves and other races of Azeroth couldn’t rebuild peacefully, knowing that Sylvanas was still free and trying to sell our planet to the person responsible for all our suffering. I don’t know why people still hold on to the idea that hunting for Satan’s general who wants to enslave the cosmos is selfish.
What did you think they’re supposed to do? A long line of Night Elves, Worgens and other victims of Sylvanas and everyone give her a slap in the face? Believe me, everyone wanted the same fate for Sylvanas. Even on the way to court, everyone wanted her dead. Tyrande spare her only because she might be useful.
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Did she have to be one? Did she have to do it alone? Sylvanas is not out there, no matter what.
You seem to think I’m arguing that Sylvans didn’t need to be captured. I’m not.
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If it was the intention for it to just be individual, then Shandris should reflect it. Voss herself might not, because until BfA, she really didn’t have much to do with the Forsaken in any ‘greater society’ way. Shandris however, is the fixture of an elite organization that partly defined the culture of the Kaldorei for 10,000 years, and family to the 2 other fixtures who lead the even greater influences. In a civilization with strong bonds of union through shared spirituality and duty. Individuality would exist 100%, but someone like her is likely by nature closer to a paragon of cultural values, BECAUSE she was likely one of the people whose actions and image personally defined it after their culture fundamentally overhauled itself after the War of the Ancients.
And to be honest, leaning into that would add a ton more depth to them as a character, their outlooks, how they treat themselves and interact with others, than just ‘well she’s different from everyone else’ handwaving would imo. Individuality exists within tight knit communities but a lot of the core outlooks that motivate them as a people don’t align with the Forsaken. And I think it is lazy to handwave that for an easier ‘friendship’ story when the alternative, an exploration of their differences and how they reconcile that (assuming they desire to reconcile at all, which is a cool topic itself) just sounds more in depth and personal.
It’s not selfish. It’s just that blizzard tries to portray it as evil in their narrative because so much of BfA after Teldrassil and into SL tried to demonize the Kaldorei for their anger. From a consistency standpoint, Tyrande is about justice, Maeiv is the one about vengeance, and that is a fairly hard line between them. Rather than actually let Tyrande have an ounce of her nobility from Frozen Throne or the last mission of Eternity’s End, they just wanted her to be the New Maeiv because they think people just want all NE women to be Maeiv… y’know, when part of Maeivs entire concept is that she’s a zealous blade type thinking they’re the law, while having ultimately lost connection with their civilization they’re trying to be the arbiter for.
Elune contradicted her own beliefs about not leading the Kaldorei on a leash and letting them make their own decisions though. Which actually is a major part of NE history, because if this wasn’t the case, they never would have become corrupt and built their empire, and said empire wouldn’t have lead them away from Nature and toned down their faith in Elune. If we go off prior lore, Elune allows the Kaldorei to chose and live by those consequences, but is there for them when they’re willing to listen. Because of this, despite their spirituality and potent abilities, they’re actually self reliant, and don’t repeat the mistakes of their old civilization p much just being dependent on the Well of Eternity and arcane power.
“The far-reaching and ancient legacy of the night elves shaped them into a race of very self-sufficient and self-conscious individuals, who often display strong streaks of isolationism and eons of accumulated ancient wisdom.”
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