The ptr is more up to date than the beta one from my understanding. (Wowhead default calculator is the beta one)
ptr. wowhead.com/talent-calc/priest/holy
Edit: had to add a space before wowhead. Can’t post the ptr full link…
PvE Shadowpriest PTR feedback as of 9/16/22:
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Would love a choice node between Angelic Feather and Door of Shadows
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Would love talents that build in the Sepulcher tier set 2-and 4-set bonuses - this is more fun than any of our current Idol talents (imo).
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I hope you keep Mindgames around. It’s good damage, has some solo/survival PvE value, and isn’t rotational so it’s not too bad for the button bloat issue.
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Dominate Mind - I really like this spell - it is such a unique CC and will be GREAT for dangerous M+ groups where the cc’d mob will stay cc’d just long enough to widdle down the group before it breaks free, plus it can do some nice damage. I think this will bring up interesting and fun choices in M+ about which mob brings the most value to mind control. So…I hope you keep this talent around!
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Idols - way undertuned, bugged, and lacking in fun interactions. I’m sure you can tune them at some point and fix bugs…but how do they change our play? Seems like they don’t! Just select the talent and forget about them. To be honest, the Idols seem like superficial flavor without any actual purpose - are they not supposed to be powerful capstones that we should want to take and that change how we play to some degree?
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Shadow Crash - my personal preference - your mileage may vary- I would prefer it as a mob-targeted ability instead of ground reticule targeting. Frustrating how many times camera angle suddenly changes and my shadow crash winds up on the ceiling.
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Utility at the top of Shadow tree - it’s hard to justify taking the majority of the utility because you lose throughput. In the current tree I think the Last Word/Psychic Horror choice node is dead for PvE spriests. Probably same for the Intangibility/Mental Fortitude choice node.
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Vampiric Embrace - I WANT to like this - because it would be nice to have utility that groups want to bring me for M+ but there’s a few issues. Can this spell be OFF the GCD? And could it be switched to a group-wide leech buff or something that doesn’t rely on me personally having to do single target damage?
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Halo - is too dangerous to take in m+ and is just going to give shadowpriests a bad reputation and we’ll have group leaders in group finder passing on us because of bad experiences with spriests who used it and pulled extra. I’m good with removing both this and Divine Star as unneeded button bloat, but maybe other spriests or other specs think they will be useful?
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Shadow Mend + the Masochism/Depth of the Shadows choice node - this is GOOD and gives us a good choice between damage mitigation or extra powerful heal - plus flash heal is weak. I hope you will keep Shadow Mend plus the choice node below it.
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Mind Spike -
- if this is an option in some builds, which from my PTR testing appears to be very much the case, to be a replacement filler for Mind Flay - just know that it becomes extremely spammy in cleave situations. Don’t get me wrong, I love how shadowpriest can become hectic but the kind of spammy I prefer is weaving lots of different buttons, not spamming the same button (Mind Spike) so much. Sooo, I hope you can look at this, and/or just make sure Mind Flay builds remain competitive so we aren’t forced into 'Spike Spam. -
Mind Sear - I don’t understand what niche this is filling? It’s tuned pretty low and I know you can fix that pretty easy, but it lacks interactions that our other spender, Devouring Plague has. In what damage profile situations are we going to prefer Mind Sear? Are you planning to tune it so we want to Sear on Mass Aoe? Or maybe for burst AoE? For the amount of Insanity it drains, I have to think you plan to tune it for big burst or mass stacked AoE, but it’s unclear currently and seems like a dead talent on the PTR right now.
2 Likes
Here is my attempt to reorganize the Shadow Spec Tree.
A few changes I assumed when making this layout are:
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Idol of Cthun is now triggered by Shadow Word: Death.
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Mind Sear now has a 100% chance to stack Echoing Void.
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Derangement now applies a 5 sec buff to the player which stacks up to 3 times whenever Devouring Plague is cast. The Buff increases the initial damage of the next Devouring Plague by 200%. Stacking does not refresh duration.
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Idol of Yogg Saron now summons Living Shadow instead of that derpy Thing from Beyond. The Living Shadow is summoned when you reach 3 stacks of Derangement. The Living Shadow lasts for 5 seconds and duplicates your Mind Spike and Mind Blast casts at a reduced effectiveness (thanks Aneurysm).
Ideally, Silence and Dispersion move to the class tree as contextual talents. If that doesn’t happen, they should be made baseline for shadow. In that case, Intangibility and Psychic Horror could be adjusted to the positions adjacent to shadowy apparitions.
Some notable changes I made are:
- Unfurling Darkness and Dark Void are now a choice node.
- Mind Sear and Mindflay: Insanity are now a choice node.
5 Likes
lol lightwell, omg no!!!
see the lightwell?
Here I’ve marked with the blue marker
You need to touch the lightwell
It won’t heal you if you just look at it
What else is there to say about lightwell
1 Like
way better pathing. By a long shot.
I still think whisper of the damed needs to be deleted/reworked tho.
Derangement Needs to be etheir for DP only or Mind sear only.
shadow orbs proc mindblast and DP, remove mind spike.
cthun is fine being triggered by ether or. It just needs to Proc Way more ofthen and with more tentacles for the fantasy theme.
The puppet master should be underneath harnessed shadows.
Derangement 1 point. let’s stop the BS 2 point. These talents are not worth that hefty cost.
Same for maddening touch - 1 point.
PvE PTR Shadow Priest feedback, 9/17/22:
Shadow Priest tree Builds (And why I think there are only two basic builds and they are based on which “filler” you choose: Mind Flay: Insanity or Mind Spike):
- After testing for days with different builds on target dummies and out on elites in zereth mortis and examining my Details breakdown, here are my thoughts on the two types of builds available.
- If you choose Mind Spike, then the majority of your synergies are based on buffing non-periodic damage: you will take Psychic Link, Whispers of the Damned, Mastermind, and Insidious Ire. You will take Mind Flay off of your bar and replace with Mind Spike. Your major cooldown will be Dark Ascension. Most of your overall damage will be Mind Blast. Your playstyle will be somewhat spammy with 'Spike spam, especially on any cleave/AoE (you will have constant Surge of Darkness procs). Your build will look something like this:
If you choose Mind Flay: Insanity, then most of your talent choices are based on synergies here: your main cd is Void Eruption, and of course you want Monomania and you will take Mental Decay but otherwise avoid the right half of the shadow tree. Most of your overall damage will be your dots. Your playstyle will be somewhat more mellow except during Voidform where things will be hectic and fun (the way I like it). The build looks something like:
Maybe I’ve got this wrong, but my conclusion is that although there are a few choices available, for the most part your shadow build will depend on your preference between the two fillers: spamming Mind Spike, or the somewhat mellower Mind Flay:Insanity. The rest of your choices flow from the need to synergize. My conclusions were based on hours of testing and seeing what builds perform like as well as what the damage breakdown looked like for each build. Of course, all of this is dependent on tuning and further changes.
I actually don’t mind this set up. I somewhat like the different filler-build’s playstyle although my finger gets tired when spamming 'Spike when cleaving. Overall I prefer the flay-filler build because it can be mellow but then during Void Form I get the old feeling of hectic-ness that I get on live when I pop my cd’s. I just really miss Hungering Void.
Your (Dark) Thoughts?
3 Likes
The recent changes made to Mind Spike and Mind Melt have improved the Insanity generation of Whispers of the Damned. You can get an idea of its effectiveness by looking at a basic Mind Spike and Mind Blast spam rotation for a character with base stats.
Assume the following talents are taken:
- Shadowy Insight - Chance to reset the cooldown of Mind Blast and causes the next Mind Blast to be an instant cast
- Mind Spike - A 1.5 second cast direct damage ability that generates 6 Insanity
- Surge of Darkness - Chance to make Mind Spike an instant cast and deal 50% more damage
- Mind Melt - Mind Spike reduces the cast time of Mind Blast by 50% and increases the critical strike chance of the next Mind Blast by 50% (stacks 2 times)
- Whispers of the Damned - Mind Blast and Mind Spike critical strikes generate 5 Insanity
- Mastermind - Increase the critical strike chance of Mind Blast and Mind Spike by 6% and increases their critical strike damage bonus by 30%
For a character with base stats (0% haste and 5% critical strike chance), the basic Mind Spike and Mind Blast rotation consists of spamming Mind Spike and then using Mind Blast when it comes off cooldown. If Shadowy Insight is never triggered, the player ends up casting Mind Spike 5 times and then using Mind Blast. If Shadowy Insight is triggered, the number of Mind Spikes casted between Mind Blast uses becomes less than 5. Surge of Darkness does not affect the number of Mind Spikes casted between uses of Mind Blast. Mastermind increases the critical strike chance of Mind Blast and Mind Spike to 11%.
The following cases could occur and the approximate expected Insanity generated per second by Whispers of the Damned is listed. The approximate expected Insanity generated per second by Whispers of the Damned without Mastermind is in parenthesis.
- Mind Spike x5 + Mind Blast: 0.86 (0.69)
- Mind Spike x4 + Mind Blast: 0.96 (0.80)
- Mind Spike x3 + Mind Blast: 1.11 (0.96)
- Mind Spike x2 + Mind Blast: 1.36 (1.22)
- Mind Spike x1 + Mind Blast: 1.20 (1.00)
- Mind Spike x0 + Mind Blast: 0.36 (0.17)
These numbers would increase with higher haste and critical strike chances. For example, for fun, a 100% haste and 100% critical strike chance results in Whispers of the Damned generating approximately 6.66 Insanity per second. However, these numbers would decrease when you consider casting abilities other than Mind Spike and Mind Blast in the rotation.
For some comparison, considering base stats, Maddening Touch approximately generates 0.33 Insanity per second on single targets. In combination with Monomania, Maddening Touch approximately generates 0.52 Insanity per second on single targets. Maddening Touch really gets an edge in multiple target situations.
With all this said, I don’t think Whispers of the Damned is completely horrible. It seems to be an okay passive Insanity generation mechanic for some situations. I don’t think its 2 talent point cost is justified, though. To make things worse, the first talent point grants 3 extra Insanity while the second talent point only grants 2 extra Insanity. I also do not like that it acts as a gate to 3 unrelated talents: Damnation, Void Torrent, and Malediction.
I wish THAT made a come back 
1 Like
I mentioned our Sepulcher tier 2 and 4 set bonuses in a previous post, but I’ll reiterate here @Heartshade (awesome name btw), I would love to see the tier set bonuses get built into the DF talent tree.
1 Like
These two point talents are fine even if they are just adding a cost to reach another ability. They are, in fact, quite powerful effects in addition to presenting an interesting choice.
If they made shadow mend instant cast, and do healing based primarily on how much dot damage went out over the preceding 15 seconds that could be interesting. Makes it dissimilar from flash heal, gives priest a solid defensive with shadow covenant, and something unique - rewards spreading purge the wicked.
1 Like
if its purpose only functions as a wall, then it’s a bad talent IMO.
Needs to lower cost and or rework a bit.
But w.e justt mah two cents on that. Class tree has this issue as well.
I’m afraid that would make this incredibly powerful for shadow, considering the masochism talent attached to it. I mean I wouldn’t say no to this, but I doubt blizz would say yes 
8 Likes
Were yet to see what our tier set bonus is actually going to be on the first raid tier. Probably won’t for at least another 1-2 months.
The 2-piece bonus was basically equivalent to having Light of the Naaru (33% reduction retail) on-top of Holy Oration. Next expansion though it’s getting toned down a bit. With LOTN you’re looking at about a 7 cast reset on Serenity vs 5 on retail w/ 2-piece.
Our single target healing is going to be toned down next expansion, but it’s a lot of give-and-take. Cast more flash heals, but get +15% more crit. Slower Holy Word Serenity resets, but you can get up to +20% increased healing on it.
I’m more concerned about mana consumption rates because Flash Concentration already runs hot on mana and were casting a lot more Flash Heals. I don’t know if Shadowfiend is going to cover the gap of not having Fae Guardians though.
Everyone ready for tomorrow lol
1 Like
Some more specific thoughts.
I’m disappointed they’re thinking about removing Shadowmend for Disc. I don’t feel like Disc is really suffering from button bloat itself, and while others have brought up Disc’s lack of shadow spells without Mend, to me the addition of a strong single target heal that isn’t also a major source of Atonement healing feels like it fills a solid niche. Even with Contrition allowing Penance to fill that heavy duty single target healing role, I would still like to have it for the flexibility.
I’ve seen the suggestion of having SCov turn Flash into Mend, but I don’t think I like that. It puts SCov in this weird position of being an AoE heal that enables stronger single target heals.
Also feels weird to have Mind Games on the chopping block. It’s a neat form of utility that works for all three specs. If anything, I’d look at increasing the cooldown (that 30-60s CD range is pretty busy for Holy/Shadow) and see how it feels from there. It doesn’t need to be raid CD level, it just needs to be worth it when it’s up and used well.
On Vault of the Heavens, the blue post structured it as something that has to compete with Leap of Faith, but…does it? Why can’t Vault be its own button competing against Feathers? Both are strong movement options, so the choice is less clear.
Brief aside, but is the Evoker buff still reducing Life Grip’s CD? That ‘made sense’ when Feathers were a choice node against Body and Soul (so affecting one and not the other would have made Feathers better), but that’s not the case any more. The Evoker buff should be affecting feathers now.
If there was anything I’d be looking at to reduce bloat, it’s Fade. Fade doesn’t really do anything meaningful as far as I’m aware (the threat drop aspect was barely even useful in Vanilla) until you reach the final tier of the class tree, where it can then grant 10% DR with 33-50% uptime (for 1-3 points). I can think of things to do with it (like making it give minor DR by default then having a talent that transforms it into Dispersion), but as a baseline spell I don’t think it’s pulling its weight. Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s on the GCD, right? Or was that changed at some point. It’s off the GCD.
On Disc/Holy getting access to Dispersion, thematically I don’t think there’s an issue. Dispersion doesn’t have to be a shadowy blob, it could be a glowing yellow blob, or a mix, it’s just a matter of getting the art assets for it. Mechanically, I think it’d be fine for them in PvE. By default it’s, what, 60% DR on a 2 minute CD? I could see bumping that up an extra minute, which would still leave us pretty squishy, but we’d have an out. In PvP, I can’t say.
And finally, a brief, insane aside on Mind Spike. Do not take this seriously. Just for fun, what if Mind Spike was a spender that granted you a stacking increase to haste and damage for a short duration, but also increased its insanity cost per cast? I realize this is absolutely backwards from the actual intent of the spell and using it for Dark Ascension, but in a very stupid way, it’d bring back something like Legion/BfA VF. Build up to near max insanity, start alternating between spiking and building insanity to maintain the buff as long as you can. There’s a lot of minor differences in how that’d play (ex. you could instantly cast, say, 3 spikes to start it rolling, but it might be more optimal to space them out to maximize buff uptime and insanity generation in that time), but it’s neat to think about.
5 Likes
Because that’s what shadow cov is used for on live. Mostly on grevious weeks for when things go south, having the extra burst after the initial heal on the whole group is kinda what shadow cov niche is for. It just comes with restriction on not being able to cast wings/dispel or defensives.
Flash heal kinda fill a bit of shadowmend niche, even more so with the free procs if you spec for those. Adding this to shadow cov window would make shadow cov an actual option for pvp while we keep that flavor for when shadowmend is needed in pve situations. I’d probably spec for it more knowing that my ST heals would benefit more from it.
That suggestion is more in the lines of “if we remove it” so as to not make shadow covenant a worst option than it already is (or needing another redesign).
Shadow cov isn’t even all that great right now because you are piegeon holed into going shadowmend regardless…
The ideal sollution for me would still be to replace flash heal and have both spell use the same nodes in the tree so as to keep the unified utility… I feel flash heal utility (in the class tree) isn’t so different than what we have now on live with our 2-set bonus and other nodes don’t seem to be so different than masochism/depth of shadow so that they couldn’t be merged… (ex: masochism and inspiration are similare and should just be 1 node for both spells…)
1 Like
People have been putting the blame of our ‘pruning’ on PI but, rather, I feel it maybe more a problem with twins 
. Twins being there by default (and easy to pick) is one of the strongest talent points in any given tree in the game… Not saying that it should be removed… but how can such a strong node be so accessible in the middle of our tree. There’s basically no drawbacks.
Meanwhile, bottom of the class tree gets useless nodes like light’s inspiration and what not…
Thoughts?
2 Likes
It definitely feels a bit odd that twins is not a capstone. Maybe they’re worried about it being mandatory anyway so they put it somewhere easily accessible with no cost.
1 Like