Warcraft III: Reforged PTR Version 1.36 -- Updated May 3

  • Claws of attack +5 damaged reduced to +4.
  • Claws of attack +9 damaged reduced to +8.

I think you don’t realize what u have done here, claws already been nerf form 6 to 5.
So let me explain you, claws + 5 is lvl 2 item. but now claws+4 is weaker than a lvl 1 item.

Lvl1 item : Mantle of Intelligence +3 on intel hero = + 3 atk dmg, more mana, more mana regen
Lvl1 item : Slippers of Agility +3 on a demon hunter = + 3 atk dmg, armor buff, agility buff.
Ect…

Every " decent" player would put an item that fit with the hero. So don’t ridiculize yourself making a lvl 2 item weaker than a lvl 1 item, or rework all items in this case.

Thank you for the patch and your effort anyway.

5 Likes

Not necessary, this will make balance worse, claws +4 <<< circlet, check test circlet vs claws +5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6o5WUOGnVY

Fair change, because LS is working only vs humans.

Not sure. Their strong part is DPS or range, even FS wolves which combined with headhunters very well.

5 Likes

Stop listening to Back2Warcraft, are they are biased, cause of their fanbase that are anti-Happy and are hating on UD.
You should not balance the game based on player, aka Happy that is 10x better than the rest, and play 10x more than the rest.
Balance the game at high level, but when the level is EQUAL. Also balance the game by what options the race have, their potential and so on.

UD needs huge buffs. It’s about time you buff the DL, CL and DK. Rework DK ultimate, and buff Dark Pact.

BM and DH gets huge buffs to their 3rd ability, it’s about time UD gets one as well.
Rework Frost Wyrms, as well as buffs to the abominations.

Kodos needs a slight nerf. Scroll of Speeds need gold increased.

Human also needs some reworks. Gives MK higher mana regen or gives him some slight AS buff.

1 Like

Exactly. Both Neo and Remo are highly biased, because of their donations fans, that wants this game to have 2 races, aka Elf and Orcs, and they are hating on Happy by default.
They are doing what Moneys tells them to do.

They are also incredible bad at the game, and have ZERO knowledge of how to actually balance the game, and their suggestion totally break the balance.

1 Like

Arcane Tower buff is a bit too steep (a 50% increase in mana destroyed is too much).
Headhunter HP shouldnt be cut by 25 but Berserker HP could be nerfed by a small bit instead if you’re going down this path.
Claws need to stay at +5 damage.

2 Likes

Claws are too strong on the BM, it’s simple as that, it needs to be nerfed, or BM needs to be nerfed.
Also CHANGE the Crow form on Druid of the Talon back to doing Magic Damage, as they have no business doing Piercing, being super cheap and effective, and literally Destroy HIGH GOLD and 5 limit tier 3 Units - Destro in a nick of second.
Elf already have plenty of Anti-Air options.

HH are 2 food army. They ARE WAY TOO STRONG, the nerf is good, either that or Lower their DPS by a lot.

Also it’s about time to nerf Hex, as it’s too strong. Remove the slow on Heroes and/or reduce the duration.
The no XP while hexed is plain stupid too.

  • Buff Paladin, give him more movement speed.
    Also would be cool if you use holy light on paladin him self that he get like a 25 bonus healing.

  • Decrease cost and damage of rifles.

  • Take away devine embrace and replace it with movement speed aura. not stackable ofcources.

  • Let us change the size of the UI

1 Like
  • Immolation mana drain per tick increased from 7 to 8.

Immolation at level 1 is slightly over-tuned, and any nerf would improve upon the current status. But increasing mana cost makes the spell weaker in later stages of the game, where it is already not that good compared to other AoE spells. Also, the main problem currently is the damage output in the early game, which makes both harassing extremely powerful and creeping very efficient. As such this solution does a sub-optimal job of addressing the main issue: pure damage output, especially at level 1.

I would rather suggest reducing damage output. At the same time reduce mana used per second to keep dps per mana point spent as is now, or at least not significantly worse (keep the spell mana efficient). My suggestion would be to reduce damage to 12 / 22 / 34 and reduce mana used per second to 6. That would entail a damage reduction of 14% per cent and damage per mana point spent the same as in 1.35 at level 1. Damage per mana point spent would be slightly higher at level 2 and 3, where the spell gradually becomes less efficient because of counterplay anyways, and damage output would still be lower (10% for level 2 and 3 respectively).

  • Sentinel Research cost reduced from 100 to 50 lumber.

Sure, why not?

  • Arcane Tower Feedback increased from 12 to 18 on heroes (24 on regular units).

Seems both unnecessary and too strong. The main problem currently is DH harassing peasant lines, double nerfing seems like a bad idea. Would also be very powerful against all kinds of base harass against all races. Makes tower pushes even more powerful, would be bad for balance against night elf, where tower pushes are already pretty strong. Bad change, should not go through imo. Also not a needed change in the human vs undead matchup, where human statistically is doing well atm.

A better change might be a slight reduction in upgrade (build) time, but one should see if this changes tower rush/early game balance too much.

  • Sundering Blades bonus reduced from 15 to 10%.

Fair.

  • Troll headhunter hit points reduced from 375 to 350.

Wrong change imo. Headhunters are already fragile. If you want to nerf headhunters reduce range/damage in the early game. This could be given back partly or in its entirety with upgrades later, so headhunters don’t become too weak later in the game.

  • Pulverized cost reduced from 225 to 200 lumber.

Fair. Could reduce further.

  • Cannibalization cost reduced from 75 to 50 gold.

Fair.

  • Cannibalization research time reduced from 30 to 15 seconds.

Not needed with cost change, makes it more or less “free”. Let’s first start with gold cost change, or research time change and see the consequences from there. (Thanks Neo)

  • Claws of attack +5 damaged reduced to +4.

Good, IF circlet is either changed to 1/1/1 or made only available in the shop.

  • Claws of attack +9 damaged reduced to +8.

Don’t have strong opinions on this.

  • Potion of Greater Mana reduced from 250 to 200.

Good! Mana stone should get a nerf to keep it in line with this change (thanks Neo)

  • Wand of Mana Steal reduced from 65 to 60.

Good!

  • Lighting Shield removed from the item table.

Good!

Other thoughts:

Most matchups including Night Elf are balanced around a strong DH currently. One should observe if a further reduction in DH’s potential would necessitate other changes to compensate. For instance, if undead fast expansion becomes too powerful against Night Elf that goes DH first.

2 Likes

when remove night elf? ty

6 Likes

Thank you so much for working on Warcraft 3!
I’m also deeply grateful that you implement balance suggestions from the progamers and community leaders (e.g., Grubby).

1 Like

This balance change is laughable. I have no idea if guy responsible for balance has some kind of Night Elf fetish but making another patch without adjusting Orc vs NE matchup is beyond any reason.
After another claws nerf Blademaster will be a meme hero at this point. Nerfing the most reliable units like Headhunters would make sense only if given race overperforms and Orc defeinitely doesn’t overperform. This is like 4th patch with Tauren “buff” that won’t change anything. They need magic resistance upgrade like Mountain Giants to be useful in 1v1.
Undead (only on highest level) and especially Elf are races that overperform. Human and Orc are races that underperform. How hard it is to understand?

2 Likes

First off, thank you for bringing these patches. It’s heartening to know there’s a team behind this supporting the game we love.

Regarding balance changes, I’d love to know the intent behind these changes. Do you want more diversity in units and strategies? Do you want to see more range of units? Do you want to address specific matchups etc in your notes.

I’d like to address two problematic areas in the balance. Arcane tower being buffed and the headhunters hp.

Arcane tower
While the DH is almost impossible to hold at lower levels when a human is fast expanding (and they need to prevent rifle pushes alone against elf and make it a one dimensional matchup) you should either nerf the DH’s immolation OR buff the arcane tower (but by a little not a lot). Doing both severely affects the possibility of harass which means you encourage either counter expansion play or a different hero altogether to prevent lopsided economy battles. Making the arcane tower so strong also gives rise to tower rush strategies that were always a headache but now become even harder to hold as elf. So you have to choose one. Reducing damage on DH with immolation is better than buffing the arcane tower.

Regarding headhunters.
HH are critical for Orc in the Orc vs UD and Orc vs HU matches to creep quick and act as support units that scale in the late game (grunts don’t scale).

With a lower HP count and no reduced cost to the hh, you are letting the undead get a dark ranger that has access to skeletons upon a head hunters death that automatically reduces the fighting army for orc while increasing the undead’s army significantly. Orcs don’t have access to great dispel in the walker since they are “cost-effectively” countered by destroyers plus they need additional training and another building that doesnt serve in this matchup at all.

This makes it MUCH harder for the orc to fight unless they have a base that’s set up. While the quicker build time for the expansion was welcome it isn’t fast enough nor effective because of the lumber needed to counter this tension between undead and orc.

That being said, I think the cannibalization and sundering blade changes are great. I am not sure how the sentinel bonus will help but we can test that out.

2 Likes

First of thx for maintaining balance changes.
But I don’t like and disagree with half of them.
Arcane Tower is already too strong against mana-units.
Imo very bad and completely wrong direction change suggestion. I would like to see it brought closer to the guard tower.
Cannibalize needs another kind of buff (Ok, I don’t know how to do it myself either though). Upgrades should take long but be worth it.
I don’t like seeing everything being made cheaper either (Huntress’ Sentinel). Players have enough resources. I think generally the elements should be made stronger, not cheaper.
HH are already squishy enough. Wrong direction of a nerf imo.
Regarding Lightning Shield: Make items better, not remove elements from the game.
Rest good I think (or are Claws too bad now?), especially Greater mana.
But a lot of bad changes imo.

1 Like

Really happy for the patch! Could the claws and the rings have the little numbers denoting their strength though?

1 Like

example why LS should be removed

1 Like

英文不好的我只能等c皇来输出@CC20002002#1450

Any debuff of Demon Hunter is welcomed. However, as many players above have already mentioned, decrease of its damage is more crucial than increase of mana drain. The damage at all levels is still too high. I think the sweet spot is that you see Demon Hunter and Keeper at a similar chance in games as first hero.

Thanks for updating!
Here are some my opinions about the patch:

  1. Immolation nerf is good
  2. Arcane tower buff seems unecessary
  3. HH nerf is too much, it is not strong vs ud and ne, maybe give the hp back to bercerker upgrade
  4. Claw+5 nerf is unreasonable, it is balanced, +4 is so much worse than circlet in almost every situation, it’s the same tier item. Plz take that back
    Other updates all make sense, looking forward to the new patch!

You have no idea what you are talking or you are highly biased, or it’s obviously both.

On 2200+ MMR, aka Grandmaster:
Orc has a winning stats: 52.6% against HU, 51.7% against UD, and 49.5% against Elf, and are 50% against RDM.

Elf has a winning stats: 55.3% against HU, 50.5% against Orc, 50,4% against UD.

UD has all of their matchups on losing %.
46% against HU, 48,3% against Orcs, and 49.6% against Elf, and 41% against RDM.

BM is overpowered by a huge margin. Same for DH, both heroes needs their physical attributes nerfed big time.
UD is the worst race by FAR.
Cannibalize is a trash skill that no one use or would ever use, it’s not practical in actual game in a player vs player environment.
Gives UD new tools. Ghouls are 340 no armor trash units with low DMG, and only usefulness comes at T3, and they still dies incredibly fast, no matter what you do.

1 Like

HH change is perfectly reasonable, as HH cost literally nothing, are 2 food, does super high DMG, does super high AS, and for ranged units that cost 2 supply have WAY too much HP.

Orc is insanely favorite against both UD and HU, and against UD has always been, so that nerf is 100% fair. And Orcs and Elf currently are 50% on par.