At least make it WorldEditor option to disable in custom maps.
Why I don’t like 12 group mechanic for 2 reason:
I making group of units of different type: 1 group is footman, 2 group is sharpshooter and etc. And when I have more than 12 footmans I have no place where to put him. So I can put hin in shooters group, but if my shooters group don’t have space must put him in mages group. Frustrating.
This very bad for custom maps. For example like Azeroth Wars where you can have like 200 unit army and my finger not that long to use all 10 groups. If I need to make fast attack or retreat i must select my army like 10 or more times and order them.
It’s not just for new players, no one wants to have that in the game and to click multiple hotkey groups frantically while pretending it’s good for the game
such a big discussion here wow, i skipped all of it to arrive here and type: they can add it on custom maps which i am apart and big fan of. and editable for mappers however not pro play. and that’s it.
I’ve tried playing the comps I think would most benefit from this change (Mass Wind Rider, Mass Gargoyles) and I legit can’t see it getting out of control in the hands of a skilled player.
The more you try to “blob micro”, the worse your performance gets. This game is so far from SC2 with turn rates and huge attack delays that “kitting” is completely different.
If you know a comp that would break the game with unlimited selection, please tell me.
I feel like there’s only a few late game occasions when you really have more than 12 or 24 units.
Seperating the ladder into two groups really shouldn’t happen. The control group limit of 12 isn’t that much of a hassle compared to Starcraft. A hero and 11 ghouls is already 27 food pretty much a 3rd of a full army of just Ghouls.
I really don’t understand the minority that want to keep the 12 unit limit? I achieves nothing at all, except to frustrate people.
Anyone that is half decent on ladder is going to create control groups for units anyway. For the rest of us being able to select as many units as we want is going to make life so much better.
So, my only conclusion is that like everything. The small WC3 community that is still playing are going to oppose every change not matter how logical. Because, the reality is selecting more than 12 units has no impact on making ladder any less competitive, does not change what’s require for high level play and makes life so much more enjoying for the average player across the whole game…yet somehow it’s going to break the game!!!
So I have an in-between perspective on this whole issue.
Coming down to this issue, I was very surprised - and somewhat disappointed - that the unit selection is capped at 12. This is most annoying when playing as the Undead, if you go Necromancers: summoning 2 skeletons at a time, multiple times, with multiple necromancers, it’s easy to go over the selection limit and have stragglers.
However, after watching Grubby play for a little while now, I recognize that the reason why selection is limited is likely because it makes the selection bar actually useful. In SC2, you barely use it when you have a group selected simply because the unit icons are so small. Meaning, if you were to shrink the icons to make the selection panel bigger, you’d lose a lot of the functionality you currently have in WC3.
Due to this, I think removing the selection limit altogether might actually be a bad thing. Sure, you could have icons adjusting in size, like in SC2, but then that can actually screw up micro when you use the selection panel to remove, say, a damaged statue and then want to also remove a damaged crypt fiend right after… you might missclick and deselect a different unit than you intended (if you are clicking rapidly in a fight) if the selection box is also resizing itself.
So I think, instead of removing the size limit all together, I think it would be better to just increase the limit to an amount - not to where the icons are obfuscated, small, or overlapping - but to where you can select a large enough group that things don’t become unwieldy when you have a large army + summons. Maybe 24? 32? Somewhere around there.
This is the only relevant point against it IMO. There would be paging involved on the selection portraits and it would need to no suck so much (SC’s is a joke).
My argument against it is that it could be just like you use it now, while in a battle you will have to select smaller groups anyway and with a small group the portraits show up fine. You would only need to change a page if you select more units than a single page can show (which will probably be rare in high level play).
The real problem would come if you accidentally selected too many units and losing sight of the specific one you were trying to box. But that in itself would need a density of units per screen space very high, and I think it would actually be worse than now, you wouldn’t even get to select it and page to it, you would need to attempt another selection.
What you’re saying is almost a point toward the removing of the limit to me.
If you dont want to make the mistakes you used as an exemple (statue -> fiend), you have to use well thought control groups and not just mass your army into only one.
I’ll never mass my army into one Cgroup (except maybe for big army movement while not having a risk to cross my enemy in the next 15-20s, which is honestly not quite often), because i want to be able to use these small squares efficiently (use abilities on specific unit, remove them from cgroup)
So the most efficient way to play is known to be using control groups, why keep a retardly old game design choice that was supposed to guide the growing playerbase of Warcraft.
Again, what about if i want to make a group with 13 units ? if someone else wanna make a group of 15 ? This limit serves no useful purpose for the game and has to go.
I get your concern, and I think the icons should not get smaller. There should be enough space on the UI to show maybe 16-24 units at a time.
I honestly don’t think paging would ever be an issue because of the smaller unit count in war3. I just don’t think there should be a limit, and players should be able to play how they feel is most comfortable. We have to keep in mind that it’s mostly theory that’s being discussed here. When it comes to actually playing the game, most people will likely still keep smaller control groups for different unit types, and the only time larger groups will be made is for skeletons, ghouls, or other smaller massable units. Paging won’t be an issue in those cases because you can just micro the unit… if people can do it in sc2, you can do it in war3.
i think wc3tutor has some point abut the pre set control but helps unlimited unit control even better but i do think people should check the pre set control group in options post it may sound super advance but there is video there that show you a better picture of what he is talking abut
His idea without unlimited cap sounds very strange. He basically made unlimited selection of the auto group you chose that you can only give orders to the page and you page with the same hotkey. That is too convoluted to work raw.
y i think video shows abit more but i do think what the video shows wuld work really well with unlimited cap but i can see it be more easy to play the game at a competitive lvl
Well, I did some research and now definitely agree with the guy that said that 12 cap makes the unit bar really useful. Now I’m even more against the removal.
Why?
Makes the unit bar useful. It’s almost never used in SC2.
There are no massive fights, usually 12 units is more then a half of your army or even a whole army. In some games you even win before you get these 12 units
It forces players to use more hotkeys, especially new players. You guys really require some kind of such enforcement. Trust me.
It keeps the original idea and style.
Do you remember this hateful “Select all army units button” in SC2. That’s the worst button in the game, because if you’ll start using it it’s almost impossible to revert back (I made it by unbinding it completely btw), I wish Blizz could remove it completely from SC2 ;). I think the removal will really hurt WC3, there is no way it could help.
Just ask yourself a question: Why do you actually want it to be removed? For custom games? There is no definitive answer rather than that. Yes, you may think about summons like skeletons, etc, but it’s not a big deal to be honest. Maybe just remove it for summons? IDK, need more research, it feels like a good idea, but there could be some underlying rocks. I’m partly OK with slight increase of the limit (to 14-16 maybe), but only if they could keep the icon size easily clickable and static (no dynamic size changes based on the group size). Complete removal - please don’t.
Yes, in SC-like games with massive armies there should not be any cap. But once again it’s not Cossacks nor SC2. If you do not have at least 1k hours in WC3 you should not argue on this topic.
i think most people that argue abut the 12 unit limt to be removed have played warcraft 3 more then 1k hours we may have somon that write it abit lazy
yet that system gona need a really good ingame guide to explain the preset controls!
i think unit limit removal will help the game alot anyways for new players the most and some returning!
while preset control helps the people that want to get into competitive gameplay!
but the mage skeleton thing well they still use mana and death knight can only revive 6 dead unit balance will come with it anyways
The thing is, how are you losing ANY of its functionalities with unlimited selection? If the 13th unit goes to the second page, you wouldn’t have it selected anyway under the present rules.
The bar would still be usefull if you could select 1000 units.
If the armies are small, why limit them at all? It won’t make a practical difference, only make for a comfortable experience for new and old users alike.
They do not. Each player should play as they want, why should we force new player into “good practices”, we don’t need great players, we need new players period, if they want to improve they will have one and a half decade worth of guides. Why aren’t you enforcing old hotkeys with this argument? Shouldn’t new players learn that aswell?
Not at all the same thing. But damn that button haunts me.
Pointless gatekeeping. Whomever is comenting here and isn’t asking about the Classic version unlock bug loves this game. As if pro players would devolve into “F2 A-move” mongers.
