Campaign's nonsensicality and changes (MEGA-THREAD)

General Discussion
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Ya anyone in other warcraft related games,not warcraft 3, where you can have robot kael and cook chief abomination.
Cause its moba. And why you can do that ? Cause Warcraft 3 is first 3d SOURCE OF EVEYRTHING warcraft related. You can twist it like you do with BETHOVEN,MOZART and make tehno versions, i repeat versions = BUT YOU CAN NOT BUTCHER ORIGINAL COMPOSITIONS AND TELL EVERYONE YOU ARE REMASTERING IT AND CALIM ITS RIGHTS BY PUTING PRODIGY ELEMENTS INTO IT AND SIGN YOUR NAME UNDER IT AS MOZART NEVER EXISTED.
Why people need to draw and tell storys so that you start understanding simple things.

Its Activision blizzard that should be very carefull about source which is warcraft 3.

Thats one of the reasons Reforged is not a new game

Samwise had his concept art for warcraft 3 which is finished game.
For Hots and other Moba cook chief game you can do whatever you want.
Now tell me where you see “All the dudes in his art are uncomfortably bulbous meatmen” and " All the dudes in his art are uncomfortably bulbous meatmen" in warcraft 3 ?
Thats a mean twist and mean representing of Mr.Sam
SHAME ON YOU

Open warcraft 3 Jaina model and see how Reforged model has nothing to do with her, except its female with the stick weapon.
That Reforged model could pass for some asian Moba, but not for warcraft 3.
Its blasphemy at its worst

Thats another game, not warcraft 3. You can go whatever you want there
When i say check all sources, i actually ment to stick to original source but still walk together with time we are living.
That doesnt necesery means we should copy paste other games.
Cause other warcraft related games actually used that “anyone can” and created electro version of classic.

Playing ? what a strong argument

i dont have to, its elementary knowledge. I will not guess are you being rude now or you really dont wanna investigate

Warcraft 3 is finished game and you can not put garbage in it.

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Trollord with the serious contents.!

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Tnx. Now son go to other room and read that book i gave you.

Cause ceremony of crowning you as a king is begining soon,you must acces knowledge of higher trolling skills if you wanna rule the forums.

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Actually, the creator can do whatever they want with their product. We simply dont have to agree with the changes, however definitive they are.

Look at what George Lucas did to the original Star Wars trilogy by adding unnecessary CG. Do we agree with it? No. But sadly, that is the version the creator made canon. We have no control over those decisions, we can simply choose to ignore it and thats what Star Wars fans do - they ignore the Enhanced Editions.

Blizzard is absolutely able to and allowed to do whatever they want to the lore. You can choosr to accept it or reject it, but you cant claim this is as illegitimate.

Intellectual property is filled with this kind of controversy, but its all at the hands of the creator. JK Rowling made Dumbledore gay and made the snake into a woman. Ridley Scott added unicorns to Blade Runner. These are canon. We dont decide what is legitimate, we choose what we like and dont like that is all.

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No see, this is from a BlizzCast during the 15th anniversary of the Warcraft series some time before Cataclysm came out. Heroes of the Storm wasn’t a thing yet. Again, you should consider the phrasing. I’m just going to keep copying and pasting the transcript because apparently that’s necessary. He’s not speaking about one instance, he’s talking about the entire series.

Samwise Didier: Just in general, making art for the Warcraft IP is just awesome. Pretty much, if anyone says, “hey! I want to try doing this and combining…” “Go for it man!” Chances are it’s going to end up looking awesome and the designers will make it play killer, and Metzen will work it into the lore somehow.

But they are going under the hood into the code to clean it up and are making a ‘Reforged’ campaign so they need to get writing/directing/voice acting. Not to mention, if the Culling mission is anything to go by, level designers. Then they need QA people to be testing those levels. Plus they’re working on the online integration so, like Starcraft: Remastered, Reforged will have modern BattleNet integration. They’re doing more than enough to warrant treating development like a new game.

https://i.imgur.com/1qOLKVw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dB4d7aP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/L427meg.jpg
Bonus round(s):
https://i.imgur.com/qaacVRF.jpg - That itty bitty waist on this Keeper.
https://i.imgur.com/Tun9tBb.jpg - This Demon Hunter just walked out of the steroids documentary “The Man Whose Arms Exploded”. Which is a feat given his skeletal feet and toothpick ankles that could snap at any moment.

I’m not saying I hate his art. Although I did prefer his cleaner, simpler stuff from Warcraft 1 & 2, the evolution of his own style really helped push Warcraft 3 into the high fantasy it really wanted to be and started to be. I just think it’s a bit strange to put Warcraft 3 on a pedestal when it comes to ‘realistic design’ when the Art Director contributes and rocks that kind of over-exaggerated style.

https://i.imgur.com/Ey3IoYZ.jpg
The obvious statement we can both make is that it’s not a 1:1 recreation. But the second, hopefully equally obvious statement is that her Reforged model draws from every source just like how her World of Warcraft model in Classic, the update in Wrath of the Lich King, her Hearthstone art, and Heroes of the Storm model all came from her iconic debut look in Warcraft 3.
https://i.imgur.com/qt0tlrF.jpg
Excluding her Battle For Azeroth and present-day-Warcraft appearance for obvious reasons. To say that the Reforged model “has nothing to do with her” is hyperfocusing on any new design elements present rather than taking note of the ones she’s retaining even from the original 2003 model.

You’re the one that said they should copy from Heroes of the Storm’s Arthas model, but okay.

That’s what you tend to do with a video game, yes.

And they aren’t. They’re making Reforged, which is its own release but compatible for online play with Warcraft 3. Isn’t this thread about stuff pertaining to the campaign?

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This is a point so many people really have a hard time comprehending (at least here on the forums). I’m not bashing and crying around like a kid because Alien 3 and 4 pretty much sucked compared 1 and 2. I just ignore them and keep watching 1 and 2, end of story. Or are LotR’s ruined because of the mediocre Hobbit movies? No. I haven’t event watched all the Hobbit movies, but I think LotR’s are still awesome movies.

Damn people can get so emotional sometimes… I have never understood why people really bother to complain so much. If you don’t like something, don’t watch/play/read/whatever it. Do people really think that they are going to change the whole franchise for their liking, because they keep crying and complaining on the forums and social media?

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Ghostbusters syndrome. Somehow a new release under the named umbrella is utterly ANNIHILATING the previous stuff despite the previous stuff being… right there and still accessible.

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Of course units need to be instantly recognised, but at the price of ugliness? I’m not convinced. I mean, come on man, the footman looks like a kid who tried his father’s armour on (he kept his fake plastic sword though) :smile:

Furthermore, I’m not sure super-oversized pauldrons are the key to make a unit recognisable. To begin with, Reforged footmen have dark armour instead of the original light grey armour. Not only does it differ from the original game (another thing that may be discussed: does Reforged have to change just for the sake of change?), but also, it makes it harder to recognise footmen. Also, in one of his videos, Grubby brought up this issue. According to him, footmen are not recognisable enough: original footman has a shield with a white rim which makes him immediatly recognisable, while his Reforged counterpart is not. (https://youtu.be/x5caBx1qc3E?t=908 at 15:08)
As a pro who needs to make quick decisions depending on the objects he spots in the game, and how fast he spots them, his opinion has some weight, I think.
In addition to what he said, I’d say that the light grey armour and the spike in the middle of the shield are important too.

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Though I totally agree with that, I think it’s still good that people express their opinions. :slight_smile: When I spot something that seems illogical or incoherent, even if it’s considered canon and legitimate, even if it’s too late to change anything about it, I’d like to be able to talk discuss it - provided the discussion is kept sensible of course.

Well, Warcraft does that. It’s a huge universe, and it’s been around for 25 years. Some people, including me, were kids when they discovered Warcraft Orcs and Humans or Warcraft II. That’s the kind of thing that doesn’t go away so easily, and that’s where nostalgia kicks in.
Thus, I’m not surprised people get so emotional. They (we) care a lot about it, and Reforged is like a dream come true. They (we) don’t want to miss that chance. To be honest, I’d be immensely disappointed if the game wasn’t as good as I was expecting. So, yeah, I’ll still be able to play the classic version, but that would leave a bitter taste in my mouth, knowing how great it could have been…
However, emotion or nostalgia shouldn’t be an excuse to be an ill-mannered jerk, and sadly that’s quite common on these forums.

Maybe our feedback will not change the whole franchise, but some parts of Reforged might be adjusted thanks to players’ suggestions. Maybe. Pete Stilwell and other developers insisted on how important our feedback was, I hope they really meant it.

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I fully support sharing opinions. But denouncing canon is not something that can be legitimized through shared opinions. Canon is defined by the creators, and we are free to criticize the creators or the concepts and break down what works and what doesn’t, but we can’t just then pretend that those same opinions define official canon.

Even something as controversial as ‘Han shot first’ is completely debatable but can not render those scenes non-canon as a result. All anyone can do is ignore it, move past it and pretend it never happened.

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Yeah, I get that. I was a kid when I discovered Warcraft, and it has been a really important part of my life ever since. Still, I’m not throwing tantrums and complaining on the WoW forums, because I don’t like that game anymore. Instead I’ll just be a grown-up about it, realize that the game just is not something I care so much about anymore and leave it be.

That’s a good point. But as you said, it’s still no excuse to be a jerk about it.

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That’s why I try to provide feedback about what I feel about Reforged, in what I hope is a sensible and constructive way (as much as I can, at least). I don’t know if it will change anything, but I’m trying. But when the game is released, if it doesn’t meet my expectactions, well I’ll just not buy it and I’ll bitterly sulk in a corner :stuck_out_tongue:

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Na-ah. Lucas was a creator and he did what he wanted. CG doesn’t really change anything for. In the case of star wars only noticeable thing for is that he replaced ghos actor in 6th episode that really makes little sence if makes any at all. In our case the suitable word(s) would be copyright owner. People who made the game and who make the reforged are different ones. Some of modern devs might haven’t even play the game. What we are trying to do here is make devs avoid the mistakes of the past so they get less criticism. So I hope they stay awhile and listen. Plus they don’t just create something new, they want to merge old and new. I’am maybe not exactly clear and the text is a bit chaotic, but I can’t pick the right words.

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I think ‘Han shot first’ was a pretty significant change. It’s sparked a huge debate that continues today, and it’s a part of the canon that the Studios choose not to address directly. In the Solo movie, the directors even said ‘Han shoots first’ but there is still debate whether this is a change in canon or just an off-hand remark. Same can be said about the whole Midichlorians thing introduced in the prequels. It’s so bad that everyone just pretends it doesn’t exist, including Disney. In all respects, it’s still canon.

The effective canon is the one defined by the ones who continue the story today. If you want to call them copyright owners, then so be it. Honestly I don’t think there is a major distinction because Warcraft 3’s canon is not beholden to the original Warcraft 3 developers. I mean this applies to anything Warcraft. Warcraft 2’s story within Warcraft canon is decided by whatever was decided in Warcraft 3. Then the story was elaborated by what was in the novels and in Chronicles. There is no split universe where the Alliance and Horde both wins because the game decided to have a ‘choose your own adventure’ style of campaign. If we’re going to talk about game canon, then it has to respect whomever decides the canon as the definitive and official source.

As a product, we can absolutely value Warcraft 2 as a self-contained game and story that exists outside some greater ‘cinematic universe’. We don’t need to regard everything in the game as being some stepping stone to WoW. That doesn’t mean we can just throw away Warcraft canon as we please, but it means we can enjoy a product for simply being a product of its time. Just like watching the old Spiderman movies without worrying how they fit in the MCU.

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I want see to see Muradin and Illidans escape in reforged.

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Honestly the new one still looks closer to the way they looked in the opening cinematic in the original WC3. I actually always found it odd that the in-game version always looked different than in the cinematic. Also Taurens weapons were always oversized as well. The damn things were packing tree trunks for hell sakes.

Edit: https://youtu.be/2f96hKqkY_Y?t=49

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Ugly’s a bit much. Hyperstylized, sure. But I get more of a ‘heroic’ vibe from the Footmen. The proportions (with or without armour) remind me of DC comics characters, super specifically the animated stuff. Really Justice League-y.

This one’s kind of a person-by-person case. My eyes will work differently from others. In watching Reforged footage (and will go on to in-game if I get a beta invite or just when it comes out) I look for the shield, plume, and pauldrons. Like I said before (I think in this thread or another recently), I think there’s going to be a brief and quick relearning curve for people across all skill levels if they’ve played any amount of Warcraft 3 and adjusted to that. There’s gonna have to be another adjustment.

I mean, sure? I’ll never say I’m close or ever going to be in the same league as a professional player, but everyone will notice something different. That’s why all these conversations spark up.

Super specifically for the outline, looking at some different angles. The rim around the shield doesn’t seem to be as reflective as the Footman’s armour. Hell I think overall it would maybe settle some of the folks lamenting a loss of most of the design elements of the original Warcraft 3 Footman if the Reforged one’s armour was way more reflective. If it caught more light and generally looked brighter, it could still be a silver but more evocative of the old white.

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To be honest we just need more time to adjust to the looks of the graphics before we jump to ‘feedback’. I mean voicing what we think is great, but what we’re basing our opinions on is our first impressions of the game.

Things will obviously look off the first time you see it, and that’s because there’s a disconnect in your head from the expectations you’ve built to recognizing a particular unit based on its look or animations.

I watched a video of the skeletons models in the campaign. I have to say I don’t particularly like their look or design; they’re too generic looking and they remind me of Diablo Necromancer style skeletons instead of Warcraft ones. But that’s my opinion and my impression of the graphics. I haven’t gotten used to them yet. Which is the same looking at WC3’s footmen and Knights and comparing them to the WC2 versions which I was much more used to seeing, I really didn’t like Footmen with shields and Knights without warhammers. Let’s not forget the Knight portrait and his muppet mouth. These are things we all got used to.

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True but, if we are to “adjust to the looks” we need a demo or something…
And probably by the time we have that models and artstyle will be set in stone…(which probably is already xD)

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This is has been my personal take on the situation from the beginning.

Cuz that’s pretty much how Warcraft 3 was developed back in the day too. There was very little player influence on the look or design of units. I think the biggest changes they got were Illidan’s swastika on his blades and Chen wearing japanese samurai armor being changed to his Chinese-based outfit due to them realizing Chinese and Japanese cultures aren’t the same :stuck_out_tongue:

I think pretty much everything else was all internally decided for what the vision of WC3 was going to look like. Personally, I’ve always hated the Gryphon and Dragon models in WC3, being a WC2 purist myself. I think the Gryphon looked too much like a parrot and the Dragons are very ugly and lack the umph that WC2 had. I mean those units had huge wings, compared to the short, tiny flappers they have in WC3.

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