# 4v4 AT effectively has a 100% chance of winning

I now want to bring the attention to the problem of 4v4 AT teams on battle.net.

I did some math. I looked up the top 25 teams in 4v4 AT. They played a total of 263 games, and they won… 262 of them.

That’s right. Go take a look yourself if you don’t believe me. The top 25 teams in 4v4 AT played 263 games and won 262 of them. There’s a single loss. A single one.

That is a 99.62% win rate for 4v4 AT. Now I don’t think anyone will blame me for rounding this up to 100%.

Imagine playing a game where your chance of winning, statistically speaking, is basically 0%. A game is fun if there is at least a small chance of winning. In a 4v4 RT game, if you get bad teammates, your chance of winning might be like 10%. But in my opinion, 10% chance of winning is still worth playing. But 0%?

I’m always tempted to insta-leave when I see a 4 man AT. But still, I figure that I might as well practice my micro.

This is a problem. Frankly, I don’t know how to solve this problem. I know that my suggestion of making it so that 4v4 AT only match with other 4v4 AT is not a good suggestion, since it will make queue times extremely long for 4v4 AT players. But apart from this suggestion, I don’t see any other way to solve this problem.

1 Like

Hate to burst your bubble, but there were teams with records like that long before mixing AT and RT was a thing.

1 Like

Give players a toggle that gives them the ability to avoid matching against 4-man AT, if they wanted to.

I mean the option technically already exists, and that is to simply insta leave when you match with a 4-man AT team.

That’s basically what I’m doing now half the time. If I match with a 4-man AT and if I’m not in the mood to practice my micro, I just insta leave and queue again.

Having this toggle would make it more convenient so I don’t have to leave and re-queue if I meet 4-man AT’s.

EDIT: I actually like this idea a lot, because it would actually encourage me to play 4-man AT. I avoid playing AT completely because it’s so dumb to just stomp on your opponents every game. But if I knew I was only going to play against other 4-man ATs, then I would actually play AT again, because I know I’ll be going up against other good players.

Bliz’s philosophy in RTS competitive has always been to get players into games with the least amount of waiting. So, the issue is, giving an option to split queues counters that philosphy by dividing the player base, thus making wait times longer.

This was asked for during all the years that SC2 was actively developed but it was never given. Even the implementation of Ranked and Unranked mixed those two queues together to maximize the queue pool. (Even the ladder that was implemented in SCR was made global to maximize the queue pool.)

Essentially, if the RTS game with the largest concurrency in all of Bliz was denied something that counters the ‘get into games quicker’ philosophy, this game with its smaller concurrency has very little, almost zero, chance of getting it.

An option wouldn’t be unreasonable, but it does still go against the whole reason they combined them in the first place- to help keep matchmaking times down. I’d actually support that- and they could even put back the partial teams if they did it because any advantage is an advantage and a reason for RT players not to want to face ATs. But I don’t really see it happening.

There is another solution that would make playing against 4v4 AT tolerable on ladder, and that is to make it so that 4v4 RT players don’t get negative MMR (or get very small amount of negative MMR) when playing against 4v4 AT.

If I play a 4v4 RT vs 4v4 RT match and lose MMR. That’s fine.

But if you match me against 4v4 AT, sometimes 2 or 3 times in a row, and each game results in losing 50-100 MMR, well that’s just frustrating.

Make it so that 4v4 RT players don’t lose (or lose very few) MMR when playing against 4v4 AT, and I think that’s an ok bandaid solution for 4v4 ladder.

random team left the game

1 Like

It is normal in 4v4 match, that people left the game when they see diamonds team or AT. Comunitation with randoms guys is very weak because no everybody player talking with anothers teamplayers, on europa server play too much russian and asian gamers who don t speak english. On AT teams i think all team talking on discord or another voice channel so they have very nice comunitation so why their always wins matches.

I had my own proposed solution for this: Give solo queued players a minor MMR advantage when matching them against an AT, while awarding the same MMR change as if that didn’t exist. That is to say: say you have a 5000 full AT in the queue. instead of trying to match them to RT players all around 5000, it will match them to (example only) 5100 RT players instead- to account for the advantage that comes from potentially having VC and the players knowing each other.

CHATINGBOT play not game

Communication is important but arranged team is a private club, nobody arranged with a noob, they are all decent players above 100 apm at least, in random team guys 20 apm or autist. That makes it impossible. 4 decent players rt can face an arranged and have a chance, but in the best case it will be 3-4 and it isnt worth it.

In w3c they selected good players with better mmr to face the AT and the AT used to lose but in bnet that does not exist, they put low players vs arranged team over and over again. Result–>99.99% wins.

but in bn u dont need apm, 60 apm enough to be top 1 4vs4 player bn

You are special lutz, too pro, but dont exaggerate that you do more than 60

Idk how you even play the game at 60 apm. I play at around 200 apm in 4v4 and I feel like it’s not enough

It’s not how many actions you take, it’s what you do with them

Just want to remind the community that 4v4 AT is still the most ridiculous thing I’ve seen in an online game that is meant to be competitive

Yes I noticed the problem now, and it must be fixed. It was not like this a long time ago.
But I always said: is not fair to put 4xAT togheter with 4x Random people.

Better let’s Round down, to 99% and 1% - this is little bit more optimistic. In conclusion:

1. 99% of the time Sure AT team will win!!!
2. Except 1% of the time RT can win if:
• at least 2 out of 4 are pro in RT and other 2 are at least mediocre (so not total noob)
• sure we are not talking abut TK or AFK or total noobs spamming eg. lumbermills.
• they all talk - make good plan: that includes also some anti-air.

u can meet random team killer

SoloSchizao rooted for the changes he wanted, and now, all of a sudden, he makes an analysis of his own dream coming true to be worse than he expected it to be.

Matchmaking issue is not that complicated, yet Blizzard decided to follow words of TS and we have what we got. Things needs to be reverted back into previous state or done in a right way like in any other competitive game with ladder:

What the hell you talking about. The current matchmaking system is much, much better than before, now that partial AT is gone.

However there is just one more obstacle in the way of making 4v4 RT fair, and that is to find a solution for dealing with 4v4 AT.

Also are you that bad at spelling people’s names? Can’t blame you I guess, your own name is a mess