ZVP: Bring back Scourge (Test on PTR)

[LeProton-1637]

@TerranicII-1450

No, Scourge would still be a problematic unit based on their ability to obliterate air armies, and the lack of options to protect air armies from them.

I just listed all the options, feel free to keep quoting the same gold player tho.

@TerranicII-1450

Corruptors and Liberators both have long attack delays and acceleration issues could prevent them from kiting Scourge effectively even with that mild speed advantage.

Absolutely not, liberators are frequently seen kiting interceptors at the highest level which have a speed of 10.5, same with corruptors.

@TerranicII-1450

Kiting with Void Rays shouldn’t even be a consideration:

Gold league bias exposed. 5 VR’s 1 shot a scourge, 4 with +1 air. VR has attack delay of .36 meaning you are definitely shaving off scourges before they hit. Considering the best possible gas trade for zerg would be 3 scourge for 1 vr (112.5 vs 150) it would be extremely easy to turn the engagement into a favourable trade for the protoss, it’s the same concept as the current relationship of cyclone vs blinkstalker, or muta vs vr.

@TerranicII-1450

No, they don’t. Whenever Zerg masses Scourge they can simply overwhelm any normal air army.

No they won’t because air splash exists.

@TerranicII-1450

Other units can only be reasonably protected by high amounts of air-to-air splash; which simply isn’t present in StarCraft II the way it was in Brood War.

They absolutely do. L2p

@TerranicII-1450

The Thor’s splash radius is 0.5; and air units naturally split further than that within a second. It is a terribly ineffective tool at dealing with air units unless the opponent is explicitly trying to stack them up; and like most of the options on your list it would require the air units to always hover over a ground army for protection.

Given the nature of air stacking in sc2, thors would be great against scourge.

@TerranicII-1450

Those have limited mobility and a long delay that make them relatively ineffective tools for trying to protect slow air armies from Scourge.

Mines move at almost 4 speed and have a 1 sec burrow time.

@TerranicII-1450

In some cases those spells might kill Scourge, but they would be fairly unreliable.

In what sense would those “might” kill scourge? PB is seen as an effective counter to mutas, vikings, and vr at highest level all of which have several times the hp pool of scourge. In what universe are you living in where aa aoe spells “might” kill a 25 hp air unit?

@TerranicII-1450

On the other hand, if you gave Scourge splash they would be blatantly overpowered at those numbers. Zerg’s production capacity makes it far too easy to mass Scourge; and air play does not have collisions, forcefields, terrain, and the numerous other defenses against splash that help keep Banelings from getting out of hand.

They wouldn’t because:
a) you can kite them to death
b) they are incredibly gas intensive
c) air splash exists

[Shadow-244788]

No air splash units on protoss sky uh you forget it about gas heavy doesnt matter zerg can remax half corraptors easy then zerg on 5 hatch atleast

[LeProton-1637]

@Kelthar-1277

Lacks AoE or smart fire. They can deal with small scourge, but short of face tanking an A-move attack they cant actually fend off scourge in large numbers. They can survive, probably, but they cant protect anything.

If you are a-moving phoenix you belong in gold. Scourge are light, 7 range phoenixes would rape scourge like no tomorrow.

@Kelthar-1277

Are ground units, and therefore are subject to terrain. They cant keep up with air armies, and using any significant land presence specifically to fend off scourge mostly defeats the main advantages of having air units. To say nothing of the fact that archons have incredibly short range and stalkers suffer the same issues as phoenixes, but worse.

Air units can move towards ground units. Stalkers 2 shot scourge and have blink, archons can be transported in prism.

@Kelthar-1277

wut?

l2kite

@Kelthar-1277

are ground units and require an entire different tech line to keep relevant, dramatically hampering your ability to make air units.

The techline that terrans go for in 90% of games is irrelevant to their ability to counter air units? Thanks I guess I’ll fly my overlords in terrans base the whole game because the marine is that much out of the terran tech path.

@Kelthar-1277

That might protect them in your base, but you certainly arent using them to proactively head off scourge. Theyre too slow to react.

Do you even understand how counter relationships work? Here’s a hint: air units are not necessarily meant to be countered with air units, that was the entire premise of the broodlord in wol.

@Kelthar-1277

Thors ALSO lack smart fire, and while they might catch A-moving scourge in a single clump (again, if its conveniently over an area the thor can reach) , sending a couple ahead will trigger the long weapon cooldown.

If you are using it vs scourge for anything other than aoe you’re doing it wrong.

@Kelthar-1277

youve FINALLY hit on a unit that might actually work effectively.

Funny other gold leaguers seem to disagree.

@Kelthar-1277

Are they going to use their spitball rifles in this scenario or what?

No they’re going to use their 6 range and bonus to light to 1 shot scourge at +3.

@Kelthar-1277

Ok, now i think youre just trolling.

Again, l2kite

@Kelthar-1277

This one could potentially work, but its dependent on your micro ability, and can be countered by just not clumping your scourge. If you make enough vipers to counter THAT, youve already just killed your own army strength and they dont even need scourge to fight you anymore.

This is like saying the ability of vipers to counter mutas is dependent on micro ability. Seriously, l2p.

@Kelthar-1277

Same deal with the viper, but worse because its a land unit and cant regain energy nearly as quickly.

Fungal can’t counter 25 hp air units? Like???
You realize it does 30 dmg right?

[LeProton-1637]

Hahaha archon that does bonus to all zerg and one-shot scourge is not “air splash” hahahahaha

[Shadow-244788]

Archont ground splash doesnt fly also their role tank ground like a comedy zerg a move hydra corraptors and protoss must split against scourge take loss because he split and after fight

[LeProton-1637]

Right, archon toilet never existed, protoss build archons to tank ground, not kill corruptor! Ty scrub.

[Kelthar-1277]

@LeProton-1637

If you are a-moving phoenix you belong in gold. Scourge are light, 7 range phoenixes would rape scourge like no tomorrow.

Yeah, thats cool. What happens if i right click my scourge on the carriers and ignore the phonixes? When 10 phoenixes target two scourge between them, youre killing maybe 3 or 4 before the pack gets through to kill your carriers. Phoenixes can survive, but they cant protect anything.

@LeProton-1637

Air units can move towards ground units. Stalkers 2 shot scourge and have blink, archons can be transported in prism.

So in order for air play to be viable in ZvX, it needs to actually be ground play? Neat.

@LeProton-1637

l2kite

Im kiting those scourge away from my overlords or brood lords now am i?

@LeProton-1637

The techline that terrans go for in 90% of games is irrelevant to their ability to counter air units?

Right, i forgot that skyterran consisted mainly of marines. How silly of me.

@LeProton-1637

Do you even understand how counter relationships work? Here’s a hint: air units are not necessarily meant to be countered with air units, that was the entire premise of the broodlord in wol.

Are you genuinely stupid? The brood lord was hard countered by ALL air units.

@LeProton-1637

If you are using it vs scourge for anything other than aoe you’re doing it wrong.

Wow, way to not even address the point.

@LeProton-1637

No they’re going to use their 6 range and bonus to light to 1 shot scourge at +3.

So again, a terran going for mech/sky also now needs to invest in bio tech, and are also relying on the absolutely atrocious ghost auto attack to defend their units? You were better off with the marines.

@LeProton-1637

Again, l2kite

If i need to kite the scourge to fight them, then i cant stop them from killing their actual targets: my capital ships or the equivalent. In ZvZ, overlords are also absolutely hosed.

@LeProton-1637

This is like saying the ability of vipers to counter mutas is dependent on micro ability. Seriously, l2p.

Im sorry that you have literally no idea how to engage in the most basic anti-splash mechanics in the game (not stacking your units), but pretending that you cant do that with scourge isnt an argument.

@LeProton-1637

Fungal can’t counter 25 hp air units? Like???
You realize it does 30 dmg right?

See above. If im catching two scourge per fungal, im not defending anything with infestors.

[Shadow-244788]

Archont toilet in the past also archont tank bane and any ground support role in sky and yes split corraptors against archont and zerg fine

[LeProton-1637]

@Kelthar-1277

Yeah, thats cool. What happens if i right click my scourge on the carriers and ignore the phonixes? When 10 phoenixes target two scourge between them, youre killing maybe 3 or 4 before the pack gets through to kill your carriers. Phoenixes can survive, but they cant protect anything.

You have a proportionate amount of phoenixes to his scourge. Sorry you can’t have 2 phoenix for 50 scourge. They would absolutely be able to protect carriers the same way tanks protect marines from banes, just because overkill is possible does not negate a counter relationship.

@Kelthar-1277

So in order for air play to be viable in ZvX, it needs to actually be ground play? Neat.

Wow you actually need to build ground units? What a revolutionary concept!

@Kelthar-1277

Im kiting those scourge away from my overlords or brood lords now am i?

If you want to protect broods from scourge build viper, but if you’re building broods in zvz then you’ve already lost.

Pure vr would be able to take favourable trades vs scourge the same way they do vs mutas, except scourge would be more gas intensive. Again, your gold league bias is showing.

@Kelthar-1277

Right, i forgot that skyterran consisted mainly of marines. How silly of me.

I forgot the ability to create marines was removed once terran invested into 3 starports.

@Kelthar-1277

Are you genuinely stupid? The brood lord was hard countered by ALL air units.

Are you? Or did the point fly that high over your head?

Broods countered all ground and were hard countered by air. Scourge at worst would counter all air and be hard countered by ground? L2p I’m sick of spoonfeeding gold league players fundamentals.

@Kelthar-1277

Wow, way to not even address the point.

That thors would be an effective counter to scourge? No, that’s you bud.

@Kelthar-1277

So again, a terran going for mech/sky also now needs to invest in bio tech, and are also relying on the absolutely atrocious ghost auto attack to defend their units? You were better off with the marines.

Ghost is essential unit in lategame tvz, regardless if you’re going mech or bio. Ty for again proving you have gold league knowledge.

@Kelthar-1277

If i need to kite the scourge to fight them, then i cant stop them from killing their actual targets: my capital ships or the equivalent. In ZvZ, overlords are also absolutely hosed.

If you need to kill scourge quickly then mine, archon, thor, marine etc are ofc better options. You can beat scourge with kiting or with dps/splash.
You think zerg would trade 25/75 for 100/0? Are you dumb?

@Kelthar-1277

Im sorry that you have literally no idea how to engage in the most basic anti-splash mechanics in the game (not stacking your units), but pretending that you cant do that with scourge isnt an argument.

Tell that to pro players that make vipers and infestors vs mutas, kid.

@Kelthar-1277

See above. If im catching two scourge per fungal, im not defending anything with infestors.

If you’re catching 2 scourge with a fungal that’s a l2p problem.

@Shadow-244788

yes split corraptors against archont and zerg fine

Split corruptors can’t focus fire or dodge storms properly. L2p.

[Shadow-244788]

Who is storm then 2 fungal kill the ht so only archont left and wow zerg do a few ultras kill the archont and corraptors are focus fire

[LeProton-1637]

L2 use prismmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Shadow-244788]

Nobody gonna use prism for ht unless you want some free loss prism

[LeProton-1637]

Yea no toss use it cause their race is so busted they don’t even need to.

[Shadow-244788]

Not used because corraptors shoot that thing free

[LeProton-1637]

So have vr kill corruptor.

[Shadow-244788]

Zerg can afford lost a few for prism full of storm

[LeProton-1637]

But protoss can’t spare apm to micro prism while a-move skytoss ball I guess XD

Don’t even need ht, just empty prism and bait free corruptors! lmao

[Shadow-244788]

Lmao apm not measure of skill just because sc not arcade where who faster press wins trade efficensy thats matters

[Kelthar-1277]

@LeProton-1637

You have a proportionate amount of phoenixes to his scourge.

Phoenixes dont have smart fire. They dont scale linearly in effectiveness. To say nothing of the fact that phoenixes are not siege tanks and have a very limited use outside of killing light air units. If i have to make half my army phoenixes just in case you decide to toss in some scourge to kill my carriers, youve already crippled my army without having to do anything.

@LeProton-1637

Wow you actually need to build ground units? What a revolutionary concept!

Wow, its like scourge rendering sky armies invalid is the entire argument being made?

@LeProton-1637

If you want to protect broods from scourge build viper, but if you’re building broods in zvz then you’ve already lost.

You said i could use corruptors to protect my units against scourge. Now youre saying i cant.

@LeProton-1637

Pure vr would be able to take favourable trades vs scourge the same way they do vs mutas, except scourge would be more gas intensive. Again, your gold league bias is showing.

Again, if i have to invest so heavily in the counter that i cant actually make a viable army with whats left, the unit is too oppressive and shouldnt be in the game.

@LeProton-1637

I forgot the ability to create marines was removed once terran invested into 3 starports.

Do you understand what “opportunity cost” means? How about “limited resources”? No? “Supply Cap”? Get back to me when you learn these terms.

@LeProton-1637

Scourge at worst would counter all air

Yes. This is the problem. Brood Lords countering all ground while infestors countered all air was also a problem. Hence why it was nerfed and counters were added. Im not asking you to do rocket science here.

@LeProton-1637

That thors would be an effective counter to scourge? No, that’s you bud.

So effective that… you can just split your scourge and not care about the thors at all?

@LeProton-1637

Ghost is essential unit in lategame tvz, regardless if you’re going mech or bio. Ty for again proving you have gold league knowledge.

I dont recall any terrans running around with a sniper ball of 10+ ghosts.

@LeProton-1637

If you need to kill scourge quickly then mine, archon, thor, marine etc are ofc better options. You can beat scourge with kiting or with dps/splash.

If i have to kite them, then i cant stop them from killing my important units. Thats not a counter. If i need to hit them with ground splash, then i have to invest in a ground army, theyve done their job of denying me the skies completely, and its STILL a problem.

@LeProton-1637

You think zerg would trade 25/75 for 100/0? Are you dumb?

“What is supply?”
-LeProton

If you dont even understand the fundamental gameplay mechanics, you have no business even talking to me.

@LeProton-1637

Tell that to pro players that make vipers and infestors vs mutas, kid.

Mutas A: are more expensive than scourge, per supply and per individual unit, and B: need to be clumped to maintain their effectiveness. They arent an assault unit and you dont just charge them into an enemy to attack them, they rely on their mobility to AVOID enemies. Scourge are suicide units and need to make melee contact with their enemies. The units are not comparable.

@LeProton-1637

If you’re catching 2 scourge with a fungal that’s a l2p problem.

Sorry, i guess in the future ill just tell my opponent he isnt allowed to split his scourge. Im sure theyll oblige me.

[LeProton-1637]

Spoken from the race that has lowest avg apm but highest representation in gm! XD