Zergs work harder for their wins

General Discussion
81

okay, well, i wasn’t going to post these because i didn’t think they were valuable, but sure, let me

once again asserted without proving it to any degree
please stop spamming it, it’s tiresome

lol
if you are in fact as smart as you say you are then you should like

use your brain on a more fulfilling task

but you aren’t, so you won’t it’s really that simple

because it’s not that inject itself is meaningless or not an action that takes time/energy to do

it’s that inject takes 0.1 seconds of time, which should be 20 actions, but the APM tracker counts it as 50.

No, because, unbelievably enough, different races are different and different skills matter different amounts.

What you have proven is that Protoss rank is less influenced by APM. My takeaways from that is that Protoss is a better designed race than Terran, and that the APM tracker is bad at accountting for how holding a key while flicking around the map works.

All done by you, and you have a vested interest in making people believe this lie you tout.

We have Jan Hendrik Schön and Victor Ninov as examples that this means nothing.

This isn’t true because you’re not measuring the time cost. You’re using APM as a proxy for it, but it simply is not as one to one as you assert.

Nobody said the macro cycle isn’t hard. Nobody. Don’t strawman.

What was said was that the macro cycle gives you more actions even when you’re making the same number of units as compared to the other two races.

And you’re apparently denying that the peak contributes to their average?

Factually incorrect? I don’t understand how you can have your head so far up through your intestines it comes back out your ribcage, but apparently it is possible.

You cannot comprehend the idea that you are wrong or that multiple people disagree with you.

Occam’s razor on it is definitely against you here.

And you did not, in any way, reply to what was stated.

abs’s point doesn’t care what your main race, mmr, favourite player, or ranks achieved is.

It’s very simply that if You, The Same Player, play the races, your apm will not be the same on all three races. Because different races are different.

1 Like
82

Nobody said macro isn’t hard. What people are disagreeing with is that macro is harder for one race over another, though that’s something I myself am not entirely sure I agree with either; I’d argue that the act of keeping up consistent injecting is the hard part about Zerg, NOT the act of making units themselves. The act of making units, specifically the act of making the right units at the right time, is functionally identical across each race.

Where Zerg differs is that for “perfect” play, injects must be consistent and on point to get the most out of the larvae mechanic. However this can (and regularly is, even in pro play) offset by simply adding more macro hatcheries, which generate (less) larvae by themselves.

Terran and protoss by contrast don’t have to deal with injecting, but they DO have to deal with the necessary construction of additional production to keep up with their macro, and unlike Zerg, they don’t get to build supply without going back to their base.

Frankly speaking if injects were automatic, Zerg would literally never have to go back to their base aside from putting down tech structures.

You know you’ve accused me of that before - and then walked that same statement back already, right?

5 Likes
83

Blah blah, lots of words, you’ll never get me to pretend that your position is reasonable. Any action with non zero time cost increases the difficulty of the game, period. Rapid fire inject has a non zero time cost. This is non negotiable. It’s called reality. You can post walls of text trying to gaslight me from 500 accounts and it only proves your own desperation.

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A day and a year have a non-zero time cost, therefore they are the same. It’s called reality.

85

Already refuted this argument – “some actions are more important than others, and rapid fire inject is not important.” Again, absurd. What units you make, when you make them, how many you make, is literally the core strategy of zerg. And you’re saying it’s an inflation of apm to count those actions. You’re living in another dimension if you think rapid fire inject waves are an inflation. The actions taken via inject are the most important actions a zerg does, bar none. The fact that inject happens fast makes it harder, not easier. Yet you say it’s easier & that it shouldn’t be counted as APM. You’re denying the fundamental reality of how the game works. No, you can’t gaslight me into capitulating to an absurd position. I know what the correct answer is, and it’s not yours. You are wrong.

86

You’re literally getting free APM. Tell me building a supply depot is the same effort as queueing 3 overlords. It’s the same number of clicks.

87

I refuse to debate the game with someone from gold league. Get into masters at least if you want your opinion to matter. Bye.

88

Laters nerd.
20 characters

89

It’s always funny watching the trolls regurgitate the same talking points that have already been disproved. “I can switch over to zerg and make 100 zerglings to inflate my apm” is an absurd argument because you aren’t measuring how your performance changes as a result of zerg’s apm requirements in a real game. We can measure how performance changes with apm & race by looking at the correlation between apm and mmr between zerg and protoss for the ladder. For the same apm values, people have lower performance with zerg and higher with protoss. It’s just a fact of reality, apm requirements are real & contribute to the difficulty of each race. Zerg’s is the highest and that makes it the hardest. “Reality is fake” isn’t a good argument. It’s just cringe. You’re not going to trick anyone with that kind of trolling.

We can point to examples of this in the pro scene by the way. Spoiler alert, obviously, don’t read if you don’t want spoilers. Hero loses 7 voids to a single bile when having 1 more apm could’ve kept those alive. Then in another game he loses 4 tempests to splash from his own archons when simple stutter step could’ve saved them. He just stopped microing them while in range of an archon that was neuraled. 2 more clicks likely would’ve saved them. He was busy casting storm. Put a protoss in that scenario with enough apm to both storm & micro the tempests and the protoss would have a much better outcome. That protoss may be maxpax if he ever decides to show up to offline events.

So we’re pretending in this thread that the apm advantage of serral didn’t play a role in deciding how these games went. That’s how I know you guys are 1 troll on 5 accounts. The probability that we have so many people with the same exact wrong opinion, on a matter that is as easy as 2+2=4, is zero. It’s one dude with 5 accounts. That’s clear as day.

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What you failed to mention is that you most likely played Terran like a massive tryhard, and now you play Zerg more for fun, yet you still kept a similar rank.

91

Nah, terran has loads of cheesy 1 and 2 base builds that are a free win as long as you barcode. Ruff is a good example of how much build leniency terran has. He does 1 base ghost rush & still plays out macro games off the back of it. Translation, any opener is viable for terran, no matter how absurd. I mainly did proxies. 99.9% of protoss players can be beaten by bouncing between 2 rax proxy marauder, 2 rax reaper, 3 rax reaper (2 rax proxied) and 5 rax marine (2 rax at home, 3 on the map). All these builds look identical from a protoss’ perspective. You can even meld these builds. You can do one round of reapers off the rax to stall for time and make marauders. Then the reapers regroup and bounce the stalkers towards the marauders. Or you can fully commit to reapers. Or you can fully commit to marauders. Another good one is 2 rax reaper into reactored hellion with a proxy stargate. You make the factory at home and the starport on the side opposite the reapers. You lift the hellions into the main while reapers distract at the nat. Since I last played terran, there are even more options thanks to the cyclone.

I am amazed that nobody noticed that I play zerg like a terran player. I proxy, I turtle on 2 bases, sometimes three, mass static D and harass while stalling for time & investing into tech. The funny thing is that I actually told people that I main terran, years ago, and was vehemently attacked & called a liar. The people on these boards are just psycho.

Winning as terran became too easy & I was losing interest in the game. I switched to a new race & vowed to never watch a replay again in order to help keep the game fresh. Meme builds with zerg is roughly rank 100 ish in gm if I don’t stream. If I play on a barcode, it’s about rank 60. It’s rank 180 if I do stream. 6200 back in the day would only put you rank 30-40ish on the ladder. It was better, but not by much.

92

How do you feel about Terran after the reaper nerfs?

93

Also, if we look statically, Terran was winning everything for the first few years of the game, and now Zerg is, so that’s a funny co-incidence.

94

I was tired of every TvT being proxy 2 rax reaper every single game.

Historically, terrans dominated korea & zergs dominated the foreign scene. The foreign terrans are simply terrible at the game and the only exception is clem. The korean esports scene collapsed due to the region lock effectively downsizing the korean scene by a factor of 10 and the disbanding of the kespa teamhouses after the life matchfixing scandal. Korea’s talent pool shrunk & their peak talent dropped substantially. Innovation was the only player to sortof keep the talent peak up going into 2017, but even he was showing signs that he wasn’t practicing. So zergs dominate everything now because the best terrans retired or simply don’t practice the game anymore.

Protoss has always been a meme in the premier scene because, when you have 2 regions that can’t cross-compete, one race is going to dominate each region and there are only 2 regions so by chance protoss was the odd one out. The best player from each region will dominate and whatever race he plays will be the race to dominate and protoss got unlucky due to how the regions were divided up.

95

So that explains why Maru is now losing to Dark, when he used to win.

96

Being an innovation super fan, I watched a lot of his interviews and all of his games. He said that Maru had more raw talent than he, innovation, did, but that he had an issue with work ethic. He didn’t practice as much as he needed to. That was innovations impression of maru, more or less.

97

That still doesn’t explain why he’s losing to Dark, who is now a father, so less time to practice.

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I’ve never personally been impressed with maru’s play so I personally don’t find it surprising that he is a worse player than dark. I consider dark to be the best zerg player on earth. Serral is in the same boat as maru in that he abuses the most op thing of the time & gets loads of free wins from it. Right now, turtling on creep to 90 drones while playing defense all game is serral’s #1 way to win games and it’s obvious it can’t be beaten if the zerg has an apm advantage over his opponent. Maru was the same, except that he abused proxy cyclone, mass ghost, mass raven, for many of his victories. Not a great player. I’d describe him as a patch terran. Dark and Innovation on the other hand both won tournaments on a broad range of metas, map pools, and balance patches. Innovation won tournaments when terran was objectively underpowered. Innovation absolutely destroyed imba abusers like Byun despite the insane power of proxy reaper. He was simply on another level. Same for dark. He’s beating mass skytoss armies using fungal and ravager bile in the code s. It’s just nuts. Serral and Maru are each a “top 5 player for their race but boosted slightly by imba”. Dark and Innovation are truly the goats. There are no GOAT protoss.

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I mean, Dark got Maru twice, with the same trick, and it isn’t a new idea. I watched the games without a bias and it didn’t look good for Maru, even though he is technically very skilled.

100

Yep, a practice issue. Hatch gas pool into third base followed up with a 3 gas roach ling flood has been a standard build in ZvT for since Idra showed it in an MLG back in 2010. In the world cup finals, I’ve seen terrans drop three games to this exact build. It’s obvious that not much practice was put into this tournament. These players have lost interest in sc2. It’s just the reality of growing up. SC2 isn’t drawing in new talent so that means talent will decline as old players lose interest. I was ahead of the curve because I got bored w/ terran in 2015ish and decided to take extreme remedial action to try to keep the game fresh, such as only using meme builds & never watching replays & never optimizing build orders. Even so, it’s still pretty boring.