You can be Diam league with bronze skill with Toss!

General Discussion
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You can be Diam league with Bronze skill with Toss!

That is why it makes the SC2 not fun at all, to everyone playing.

A protoss can be Diamond league:

With Bronze skills of micro/macro/scouting/knowledge of game etc.!

( I am not saying every Protoss is like that, but the most of Protoss players, are definetly up there)

And this is a problem for everyone, the game is not fun, when somebody is trying to play good, puts the effort and time and looses to some one that just abuses the Race, that has quite a few strats that barely need bronze skill of micro and macro.

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Speaking honestly, I don’t think I have ever run into a toss player in diamond that was bronze league in skill. I have run into players of all races that have actively made me question why they are in diamond though given that I know low plat players who play better than them though.

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You never met a canon rusher Diam player that every game he played he canon rushed???
Somehow I don’t believe that!

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Anyone can cheese their way to Diamond without being able to do anything else. You’re just fishing for attention and it’s weird.

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Tell me a cheese that works as well as canon rush mix ups with battery or chargelots or voids or tempests. (for the other 2 races)

There isn’t anything that basicaly requires zero skill.

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Proxy 3 rax is pretty damn dangerous, proxy hatchery/3 roach rusb cheeses as well.

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Not even close, and also depends on the match up, besides if you are scouted early it is gg for you.

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You can definitely do proxy 3 rax in every matchup. I’ve done so successfully. It really doesn’t take much to do.

Cannon rush doesn’t take much to do either; but good cannon rushes do actually require some inherently learned skill, just like every other cheese.

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I dis agree:

  1. 3 racks proxy is an all in, canon rush can be Not an all in. That is very important difference.

  2. If you get scouted, it is basically gg for proxy racks, canon rush still can work fine.

  3. It is very easy defendable 3 racks proxy, I have defended most of them, they are pretty straightforward.

  4. If you are Protoss it is always going to be easier to macro out of it, or do void, chargelot, or tempest variations, and working on macro back home.

  5. You can find people bragging on youtube, how they canon rushed to GM, and they don’t even know about most units what they do.

  6. If people notice, that all that you do is basically 3 racks proxy, than your pretty much screwed, and even this proxy to gain Diam league, will be a question mark.

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That is entirely dependent on the level of commitment (for both).

We’ve seen plenty of games in pro play where this wasn’t the case.

It’s also easy to defend cannon rushes. 3 Raxes are easy to defend if they’re not on time like what we generally see on ladder. As you go higher up the timings become much more tight, and regardless, it’s also one of the easiest builds to execute.

Again, degrees of commitment.

You can find low APM challenges to GM, and you can find plenty of challenges to GM that are cheeses only, or all in only. This isn’t limited to Cannon rushing.

Same for cannon rushing; I’ve done the same for multiple cannon rushers. What’s your point?

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That is so untrue, in dozens of Casted/Commented Pro Games, they alwasy say: 2 barracks proxy is very commited, 3 racks proxy is an All in, you have to deal great dmg so it is an even game afterwards.

For my experience, I would Very Very much be up against proxy racks, (and especially I would love it to be 3 proxy, very so much you can do until the racks come back), which I can scout almost 100% when I check their base.

Cannon rush can be a very many options of variations, that you usually don’t even know when it hits you: could be chargelot type or tempest follow up, or canon/battery, and it will vary by map as well.

I’ve seen so many GMs confident when expectinig the canon rush, and getting absolutely destroyed in just moments later: ohhh it is chargelot variation, damn wrong response, gg wp, bye.

I mean generally, Protoss as a Race, is easier to Macro (Maaaaan it is so hard to recognize on these forums, YES, Protoss Macro back home tends to be easier, when executing an attack like this).

Let’s all stop pretending, and admit there is an elephant in the room, Jesus.

I’ve never seen people rush with T or Z to GM, and they don’t even know what 80% of units/buildings/production mean, compared to dozens or more of Canon Rushers. You can’t compare it.

The point as I mentioned before so many times:

  1. It is Not an all in (3 racks has to do serious dmg, it is always going to be an all in, even if in Pro games, you see they deal enough dmg to reset the game, but because it is so commited they game can go easy for more than 15-20 min, from this weird reset)

  2. It has so many variations of cannon rush, that actually seem GMs play years and years, and they know it is coming, they still die to one the mix ups. So you can not really compare.

  3. 3 Racks Proxy it has to be such a painful and dumb way, to become Diam, or especially Masters or GM. Most people will just give up, it is basically such high risk commitment, even decent dmg will set you up behind, or even die before you can bring back the racks home ( And I’ve seen enough pro games like this as well, to understand that decent dmg is not enough)

  4. Protoss has to deal less dmg, and also has much stronger follow ups from canon rushes.

Miro, I am starting to see that you are pretty strong in your beliefs, and I respect your opinion, however I just dis agree with you on this.

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Google akrij.

He is a 3k terran that got 5k with cyclone all in. There are many Posts and YouTube Videos about it. When cyclones got reworked they were insanely busted. I also did this cyclone build and got Instantly Masters while also beating a 5.1k protoss in the Process. I have actually posted the replay Here dozens of Times. But im Sure i can find it again.

Oh and he Stopped playing after He got famous (called Out) and cyclones got nerfed. Seems Like He is no longer 5k :smiley:

There is a Guy called maru. Maybe you know him. He was famous in 2018(?) for going for a 3 rax at least once in a series. Even If they knew Whats Happening He still macroed Up. Generally speaking Cannon Rush and Proxy rax are very comitted but both have a great Potential for followup depending on your Skill Level and how much damage you have done. And btw you will See a 2-4 rax (every unit is possible from Marines to marauders to reapers; 4 Rax Marine, 2 Rax marauders or 2-3 rax reapers) more often in pro Games than Cannon Rush.

For zerg there are also plenty of easy all ins. Be it 12 Pool lingflood or followed Up with ravagers. Be it nydus. Be it bane bust. Be it ling roach ravager all in vs terran that dark loves to Spam.

Mindspirit, i am starting to See that you are pretty Strong in your beliefs and i Respect your opinion, however everyone Just disagrees with you on this.

Honestly you couldnt figure Out that Vikings counter Tempests and you are Plat. And now you are Acting Like a Bronze can be Diamond protoss. This is Just sad. While you are actually much worse at your toss than your terran. Once you Hit a Higher League with toss than your terran your opinion gets a liiiiiiiittle more weight.

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So, why arent you diamond with toss? Do you say that your skill level is below bronze?

Weird!

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I don’t play Toss, weird how you always change subject, again and again.

And than you always find cover up and say that you are perfectly on Topic.

Well you are Not! You never are!

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so, play protoss for 1 match and get your free diamond. no? why dont you do it? i see your protoss is around 2.4k. but you told me you would be 3.2k if you have bronze skill level.

So you dont even have bronze skill level?

i really didnt. it was just nonsense coming from you, so i picked another nonsense take from you.

I said your comparison doesnt make sense, because you asked when i ever see a nydus coming so fast as cannon rush. which is a nonsense question to ask.

but they are equally brainless to pull off. i can show you a replay of me destroying someone on 4.5k without any micro or skill involved. just place down a nydus and unload. zerglings will do the rest without any clicks needed.

or just use 12 pool ling flood. there is even less micro involved compared to cannon rush :smiley:

everything in that quotes requires more micro than 12 p ling flood or nydus :smiley:

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You really have trouble understanding.

Exactly. If something that easy as building 3 rax next to your opponents base works on pro play it surely will work on ladder.

Seems like you are better than solar or other pro zergs, then :smiley:

ok, i did that too.

It can also be seen at ladder. LIKE MIRO SAID! Do you have trouble understanding?

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Why arent you diamond league with toss?

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That’s pretty fair; I’m happy to agree to disagree - I just enjoy having the discussion, so forgive me for continuing below.

Honestly kinda uncalled for.

Not as easy now, but this is another good example. TvP proxy marauder concussive rush is another very, very good one too. I know people in masters and GM who struggle to hold it despite scouting it regularly.

Mmm… I’ll give you that I do think their follow ups are generally stronger, yes. I’m not so sure about them needing less damage though; this again is dependent on their level of commitment - if they’re just going for a contain then it’s definitely stronger. If they are pushing for more, which many people do, then they often need more than just a contain.

There is multiple series on Youtube for exactly that.

Honestly the big difference is warp-gate. The macro is functionally the same as terran otherwise; warp-gate allows them to bank swaths of resources and spend them very, very quickly, where terran’s production is much more rear loaded.

Almost none of which are prevalent at the pro level. I do feel I should point out that Terran’s proxy 2 rax reaper is one of the most prevalent cheeses in pro level; vastly more so than cannon rushing is.

Nexus proxy has happened exactly once, in a game with sOs over 6 years ago now, and has neither been attempted nor replicated since. As far as builds go, this one is basically nonexistant. The rest are still viable after their nerfs, but they don’t really get used at a pro level, though they could easily do so.

Ladder and pro level are, obviously, quite different. But what is viable on ladder may not be viable at pro level, because of the nature of pro matches, and ladder anonymity. But if it’s viable to do at pro level it’s always viable to do at ladder level, regardless of whether you’re bronze, diamond or GM.

They are certainly very, very feasible to do.

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Maybe only the part that he couldnt figure out that you can counter tempests with vikings.

The rest is pretty much asked for. He literally says a bronze player can be diamond with protoss. Ok, cool then he should achieve it easily ? But he cant. No shot. This completly shuts down his argumentation. I know he means it as an overstatement, but still this is peak delusion. He is insulting a whole playerbase.

He even double downs:

“most protoss” :smiley: lol

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Sentry would allow you to complain about cannon rushers if it’s from the perspective of a toss player.