WOL 4v4 was better than LOTV 4v4

General Discussion
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WOL 4v4 had better gas, mineral count, better maps, better units, better game play, LOTV has flashy dumb maps and the mineral gas runs out in 2 mins…

the new system also sucks for 4v4 megatron big game hunters, there are no more blizzard host big game hunter maps, its all user custom games/maps and 3 out of 4 games that people create is zombies and other goofy crap.

Why is sc2 getting worse and worse over time??? they should bring back WOL and HOTS ladder cause LOTV isn’t as good with the 12 worker count and less mineral gas count, LOTV feels like a moba, i feel like I’m play league of legends when i play LOTV, compared to WOL and HOTS.

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I agree 100%, I agree 100%

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Easily the most fun I’ve had was in Wings’ teams. There were top masters and GMs from HOTS & LOTV that kept playing it when all three multiplayers were available.

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Again, why are we necroing threads?

WoL was awful compared to LotV. Though the current team maps are pretty bad, but they’re all old maps anyway so… surprise, I guess?

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WoL was awful compared to LotV.

Stop being a gatekeeping elitist. Gamers should enjoy what they want to enjoy. Furthermore, LOTV gameplay is a lot more gimmicky and flashy than WOL. The latter offered much more comeback opportunities, and constant and dynamic scrap battles in teams.

Though the current team maps are pretty bad, but they’re all old maps anyway so… surprise, I guess?

Bad maps in Wings were “damn this sucks” while in LOTV it feels like a freakin’ root canal.

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The nostalgia speaking here is pretty real. Bad maps in wings were almost completely unplayable.

I’m not being a gatekeeping elitist by any means. There’s so much QoL that has happened in LotV compared to WoL that it’s hard to miss. That doesn’t mean that you can’t enjoy WoL but to say it’s better than LotV is an opinion few would really share.

I agree!

Mmmm… I think that’s pretty debatable, honestly, especially given the state Wings was left in with Broodlord Winfestor being around, but I will say there were a few cool things like the Mothership Archon toilet.

Turtling back then was much, much stronger because of how much smaller maps were, and the fact that economy seemingly went forever, meaning you could sit on limited bases for an absurdly long time with little issue. In some ways that’s a good thing, but in most it’s a bad thing IMO.

Again, debatable, and a big part of that is the econ changes limiting turtle-play significantly. It’s still doable, of course, but turtling is much harder because you have to expand to bases further out or your econ dries up.

To some extent, I agree with this; specifically around protoss’ general design, but protoss’ design was an issue even in WoL albeit to a less obvious extent.

Having said that the “flashiness” that you mention can be more attributed to the general skill of the playerbase also increasing as the game has aged, though I will admit there are a few units in particular that stand out as an egregious example of what you’re mentioning (disruptors, banes, mines all come to mind), but each is necessary in their own way for various reasons. That’s going into balance which is another topic entirely though.

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I remember when my team mate (silver 1v1) and me (plat 1v1) defeated a Z GM and a top Master Z in a macro game. The game was worse back then, interesting because it was new, but worse if you compare to the game we have now. Maps were bad, extremely bad, I mean, two players who could defeat us EZ in a 1v1 got destroyed because there was nothing they could do against the map+turtle.
And matchmaking was kind of broken, in one of the first few games of a friend of mine (he was new at the game) and me, we got matched against a semi pro and his friend, they cheesed hard and my friend died instantly.

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You are 100% incorrect and everyone agrees that LOTV sucks compared to WOL and even HOTS. SC2 Wings of Liberty had millions of players and more viewers on Twitch than League of Legends. When LOTV went free to play and they removed WOL and Hots ladder around 90% of the player base quit within a year including myself. All of the Korean pros went back to sc1, right now there are only 140-150 GMs on the KR server, the 200 GM slots are not filled for the first time ever in sc2 history. Everyone that you ask why they left sc2 says the same thing, that LOTV sucks, that they turned the game into a instant unit spam tower defense MOBA arcade mode with tier 3 units at 5 minute game time with 4-5 bases eco. All of the hardcore sc2 players from the start hate LOTV. This is why SC2 is dying more and more everyday, 12 worker start, less eco, no early game anymore, scouting is almost useless every game vs. greed, LOTV is a gamble coin flip every game compared to WOL, and the new game unit designs killed sc2. This is all why the player base is gone now, sc2 is 85-90% smaller than what is use to be in WOL and the beginning of Hots.

sc1 starts each game with 4 workers for a reason. People thought 6 workers start was too much when Wings of Liberty released. Now! LOTV starts with 12 workers! hahahah! LOTV is not a real RTS. That’s why all the hardcore RTS players went back to sc1.

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Well that’s an awkward statement considering the post directly above you.

  1. league of legends is a completely different game that requires you to focus on one champion at a time (or 10 per game really). SC2 has hundreds of units that you are working with and utilizing.

  2. RTS now, and SC2 specifically, is generally less popular because of a variety of reasons, not the least of which was that Blizzard absolutely butchered their Esport with periods of complete BS balance, poor handling of tournaments in general, managerial issues and questionable changes that they went ahead with despite people vehmently protesting (looking at you David Kim) - the MSC was a particularly egregious example of this, as was the mine nerf in HotS and the ever infamous Broodlord Winfestor of WoL.

That’s hillarious considering the numbers went up during that initial perod, not down, and went up again when Covid hit. It was easier to get into than ever before and had more players than they had for a long, long time because everything was free except the HotS and LotV campaigns. That means arcade, that means coop, that means vs Ai, that means customs, that means multiplayer 1v1 and teams.

Because most of Korea prefers sc1 for some reason. Flash specifically has stated that he would prefer to play sc2 but his fanbase is primarily in Sc1. This also happened a fair amount of time after F2P hit too, not because of F2P.

The game is 13 years old. there’s not many other competitive games that old from that era that are still running. Fewer still for RTS games in general.

Again, subjective opinion is subjective. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but that doesn’t mean it’s true.

Firstly the only race that even vaguely works in “tiers” is Zerg. The game isn’t a tier based system, it’s a counter based system.

Secondly, tower defense? Really? What games are you playing that it’s even remotely like a tower defense?

Thirdly, the faster econ is, frankly a good thing. Do I wish it had been implemented in a different way? Yes, absolutely. There were several other iterations posed by the community that were frankly significantly better than the one they implemented, but it’s still better than what we had before which was literally “turtle on 3 bases and build the ultimate deathball”. The economy we have now encourages expanding because expanding means you have more area to protect, and thus more engagement and skirmishes between players. Previously you could literally sit on 3 bases for almost 30 minutes and were almost impossible to break depending on how you played.

What are you smoking sir, because I’d like some of it.

Scouting is more important now than ever before. Fast expand is standard, sure, but that doesn’t mean scouting isn’t important. Between looking for further expansions, finding out what tech their opening build goes into, general cheese builds that are very common specifically to punish said greed, the need to keep an eye on where your opponent’s army is, when they’re tech switching and so, so many more reasons, scouting has never been more important now than it was previously.

Hey fun fact for you; the majority of players left during 2 periods.

1 - Wings of Liberty’s Broodlord Winfestor phase that went for almost a year in which beating Zerg required you to all in every game and hope you kill them outright or they got a composition that was literally unbeatable - Zerg had a win rate that was over 60% at that time period in pro play, and that only rose when they got to late-game which was most games. Keep in mind anything that is at most 5% above 50 is considered imbalanced, so for Zerg to have a 60% win rate for almost a year was absurd.

2 - widow mine nerf in Hots - another period that was almost a year long. End of 2013 to late 3rd quarter 2014 they hit mines with a nerf bat so hard that the entire terran race was almost completely removed from both ladder and pro play. A massive portion of the player base left then, only to be further decimated when the swarm-host multi-hour meta struck immediately after and gouged the remainder of it.

Again, LotV has had a relatively stable playerbase throughout its extensive lifetime, and frankly has had a playerbase increase after going F2P and during Covid.

The irony of this statement is that when WoL and HotS were around, having the 6 worker start, the game had minutes where you were literally doing nothing. Casters would have to find anything they could to fill the dead space in between when the game started, and when the game actually got interesting.

When they changed it to a 12 worker start, they removed 1 build in the process. Just one - the 6 pool - which got replaced by 12 pooling instead. The rest simply had altered timings or started sooner because you actually had a decent flow that made logical sense for workers and production. It allowed you to get into the meat of the game earlier, rather than spending minutes literally just building workers.

Going back to this quote for a moment as well; as the game got older, the playerbase got better as well. Players got more skilled at holding all-ins and cheeses, leading to more macro games. That’s completely normal as a game gets figured out. it happened in WoL and HotS too.

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100% incorrect again. Everyone quit the game because of LOTV. 90-95% of todays player base started after the game went free to play. 12 worker start, less eco, LOTV game design killed sc2, period. The End. Millions of people would come back to sc2 again if they brought WOL and Hots ladder back.

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That reason was that 4 workers was the minimum count that a player needed to generate the income to train a new worker during the build time of another worker.

Workers mine very differently in StarCraft 2, such that you need 6 workers (6, not 4) to have the same effect. Hence, the worker count was increased from 4 workers to 6 in WOL and HOTS. If you reduce the count back to 4, then there would be a gap where it takes extra time just to generate the income to train the second and third worker.

Either way, it was a mistake to use that standard as the basis for worker counts, as it leads to very slow games where not much happens in the first few minutes. The change from 6 to 12 workers in LOTV significantly improved gameplay as far as most players and viewers are concerned.

StarCraft I is also arguably better with a higher starting worker count, but that game has been around so long that it is no longer patched with anything except quality of life or bug fixes; and all balance is managed through map design. Higher starting worker counts are only ever a thing on custom or campaign maps.

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No, they really wouldn’t.

I love that you simply denounce my statement and say absolutely nothing new, instead repeating the same drivel that does nothing to counter the points I made. It’s hilarious and shows how poor your actual arguments you made are.

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Huh??? They could start with 1 worker if they wanted to, what on earth are you talking about? Have you ever played sc2?

You have no idea what you are talking about, LOL. All of the RTS game attack timings, scout timings and build orders were based off of 6 worker start in WOL and Hots. The only reason why they increased the worker count to 12 and less eco was to make games shorter at major tournaments David Kim said so himself, not to improve game play for people on ladder. They made a huge mistake and killed sc2 with 12 worker start and less eco, they need to revert back to 4-6 workers in sc2. Artosis said the same thing himself that sc2 should start with 4 workers and it never should have gone past 6 worker start, but David Kim wanted to make games shorter for the tournaments, not improve the quality of the game for sc2 players.

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And then the game would take several more minutes to get started, since that first and second worker would each need to make several trips before you could train the third worker, then the fourth, etc. In SC1, you’d just barely start to get enough resources for continuous worker production after the fourth worker starts mining. In SC2, you’d just barely get enough resources at 6 workers. Almost nothing would happen for the first 5 or so minutes of gameplay.

WarCraft II sometimes started with 1 worker, and those particular games took a very long time to get going. The increased worker start in SC1 was a huge improvement over WC2, as is the 5 worker start in WC3 (which happens to be the max number of workers you can have on a gold mine for that game). The 12 worker start in SC2 cuts out boring minutes of doing nothing.

Here’s the thing. Removing several minutes where players do nothing except train and rally workers does improve gameplay! Most RTS games, StarCraft included, don’t really have anything interesting happen until players hit a certain level of tech and economy.

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He has vastly more than idea than you do sir. Literally the only build that was changed was the 6 pool. This build was removed, instead replaced by the 12 pool. Every other build in the game stayed functionally the same, only cutting out the need to make workers in between which saved a few minutes of time and allowed players to get into the meat of the game sooner. Otherwise there was literally nothing that changed with the 12 worker start, aside from getting into the meat of the game sooner.

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That’s not true, worker rushes were a big thing in WOL, pros did it in tournaments. The early game was great in WOL with worker scout, early information was important, now with 12 worker start there is no early game scouting that really makes a difference in the outcome of the game. Everyone takes two bases at the start and defends everything. They killed the early game in sc2. All of the original sc1 and sc2 devs had nothing to do with LOTV, LOTV is not the sc2 that they intended, it’s not their game. Do you think that the sc1 and sc2 Wings of Liberty devs were wrong for designing the game the way they intended it to be played? When activision bought Blizzard, they let new people destroy sc2 around the time the game went Free to play. The player base reflects this. They need to bring WOL ladder back for all of the hardcore sc2 players that use to love the game.

They literally made LOTV a MOBA unit spam at 1 min game time tower defense arcade mode, the game is not a RTS anymore by a long shot.

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You are unequivocally wrong to a point that is almost absurd. To say that early scouting isn’t important in LotV, as I’ve already demonstrated previously. 3 rax, cannon rush, 2 rax reaper, MaxPax build, proxy stargate, proxy robo, 12 pool, roach rush, bane busts and several other builds all require worker scouts. And frankly speaking, a couple of those also involve pulling workers. 12 pool in particular involves pulling drones off and using them along with your lings to try and kill your opponent.

They didn’t. They simply removed the portion of the early game where you literally only made workers.

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You are 100% wrong! Tell the devs that made the game they are wrong for making sc1 and sc2 WOL and HOTS. Lotv is not their game, other people took it over and ruined it. I think you are trolling at this point.

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That’s nice, but you haven’t provided any counter-arguments except to say “No you’re wrong.”

At this point, I’m just going to assume you’re either A) stupid B) have no arguments C) refuse to consider anyone else’s point of view other than your own, regardless of any counter arguments they might have, D) trolling, or E) All of the above.

My personal bet is E.

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Nobody would return to the 13 years old game, which is out of development. Sc2 started with millions, because it was blizzard game, just like a new game from any other famous studio, it will be popular first, but will have a huge drop, when people will have enough. There were already no millions when lotv started. Most of the players simply had enough and moved on. New players would not start to play hardcore 1vs1 game, they have fortnite and other fancy games today.

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