WOL 4v4 was better than LOTV 4v4

That’s not true, there is nothing to further develop. Like Chess, Wing of Liberty was made perfect and does not need further “development.” Hardcore sc1 and sc2 Wings of Liberty players do not play little kid FPS games like Fortnite, lol, what on earth are you talking about?


We can point to quite a few things that were obvious major problems:

For each race:

Reapers had very limited success because their high investment made it easier to cut them off before they snowballed - but once they did, they were almost impossible to deal with due to being fast and killy.

Hellions, with Infernal Pre-Igniter, were able to eradicate all light units from existence so swiftly that they, similarly, were unable to be answered - and unlike Reapers, the Hellion has some HP, costs only minerals - and even moved faster, though I’m not sure that was true after Nitro Packs was researched.

Siege Tanks in siege mode did 60 flat base damage, allowing them to almost one-shot Zerglings in an area. Despite this, the unit was glacial to get into, due to the requirement of investing in Siege Mode - @TerranicII can far, far better explain why the decision to remove these sorts of ‘mandatory upgrade’ from most units was so good for the game, but at the core of it, they were mandatory, and thus you either got the upgrade or never built the unit at any point.

Thors’ 250 mm Barrage Cannon allowed them to counter any ground unit in the game due to being a six second stun.

Similarly, the Ghost’s 45-damage-0-cooldown Snipe creates a problem of simply spam clicking.

Ravens build free zone control that lasts for up to 4 minutes, has an ability whose value is able to be anywhere from dirt to the moon; which are individually very silly – also this was a flier that sets down high-longevity damage sources?

Battlecruisers were so bad that building them was trolling. I can’t express this one enough.

Zealots were bad! They had 2.75 speed with legs, meaning they could not fight stimmed Bio, they could not easily run around on the map - and this was before they added the charge impact damage, so that wasn’t able to save them either. This made them only useful as being a wall of meat in front of gas-heavy or difficult-to-build tech units.

High Templar could be warped in with a Psionic Storm available! This completely ruins every strategic note.

Archons had 2 range, and would often get congested by traffic instead of actually attacking.

Phoenixes could not kite as they had to stop to shoot and had all of four range.

Void Rays incentivized weird nonsense about attacking rocks or your own buildings due to how miserable their initial damage was but how ludicrous their charged damage was.

Banelings eviscerated even armored units fairly well.

The Hydralisk was immobile, making it basically anti-synergize with building every other unit that Zerg had.

Ultralisks did not kill balls of low HP units, because they did bonus damage to armored targets - which made them actually kind of bad at their niche, since they did not actually hard counter anything but were huge and hard to utilize.

The Wings Infestor is considered so horrifying a design it branded an era of the game. There are so many things wrong with it -
It has a crowd control ability that lasts EIGHT seconds, the second longest in the game, beaten only by the Mothership’s Vortex.
Said ability had no projectile and eight range. It also did a little damage for good measure; meaning you could use Infestor only to kill almost anything.
Also, the Infested Terran as an ability is monstrous due to its damage per energy - while the Raven’s lasted 4 minutes, it basically could never do much since it was a building and its damage wasn’t incredible - the Infested Terran’s lifespan is plenty, and its longer cast range, higher damage density, lower price; make it a very absurd button.

And this is all off the top of my head, as things that I remember as problems.


Wings of Liberty had a bigger player base the day they removed the ladder than LOTV has active players right now, all of the hardcore sc2 players loved WOL and they still do. LOTV is a dead game because of the bad game design.

Wow, he’s like a broken record stuck on repeat.

Option E it is, I guess.


Of course, it didn’t. There were absolutely no balance problems in WOL. The maps were literally perfect and everybody would forever play them. There were no cheaters and maphack, splithack did not exist.

Of course, they don’t. All these hardcore fans just waiting the return of WOL. I mean just like hardcore fans of Quake waited for a new part…

Oh wait, Quake is dead too, because most of modern players want a simple and funny game, where you can spend 100$ on a cool skin and beat some noobs in the evening without thinking too much. Players who were 18 during WOL, are 30 today, they have acareer, family, children. Thinking that there would be millions of old players coming back is straight up a delusion.


All of the sc1 and sc2 WoL and Hots devs that left Blizzard are making new RTS games as we speak right now, and lots of professional working adults play video games, SC1 and sc2 has tons of players streamers that range from 30-60+ years old. When sc2 came out in 2010-2011 a large percentage of players were 30-40+ years old, people that played RTS games in the 1990’s were playing SC2 when it released in 2010 including myself, some were casual, some were high level masters GM players. I am 60 years old myself and I am retired.

Then go back to playing what you enjoy instead of hating on what everyone else enjoys. You are unequivocally the minority in this, there is no getting around that.

Fun fact, you can still play with WoL settings in custom games. Or you can go play BW which frankly I find significantly less enjoyable than SC2 in any of its itterations.

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Hellions move at 4.25 in normal-speed units/second, which is how things were measured before LOTV. Reapers started at 2.9531 (stalker speed), and upgraded by 0.8867 to 3.8398.

Multiplayer Siege Tanks initially dealt 50 flat damage, and 35 +15 v. armored after their nerf.
Ironically, this starting damage was too low against armored units; which is one of several reasons why Tanks struggled to be useful up until the LOTV rework. Basically, release WOL tanks were too powerful against Marines and a few other non-armored units, but too weak in other situations.

This is one of many examples where specializing a unit’s damage significantly improves that unit, since the specialized damage can be tailored for certain situations without making the unit too powerful all-around.

Yep, 250mm Strike Cannons was one of the most poorly designed abilities ever:

  • The target needed more than a certain amount of health for the 250mm Strike Cannons to be “worth using” over the regular attack.
  • The ability was an auto-kill against such units, making Thors far too powerful if the ability could ever be used. The stunning effect just made this worse.
  • Since 250mm Strike Cannons was “overpowered” in such cases, the only way to balance it was to prevent players from ever using it. That is why 250mm Strike Cannons had an absurdly high 150 energy cost (requiring several minutes to build-up), and the energy itself gave the Thor vulnerabilities that made it even less useful.

250mm Strike Cannons was such a bad ability, that simply removing it and the energy bar significantly improved the Thor.

Battlecruisers lost an average of 21.7% of their damage to a random delay on their attack. Simply removing the random delay was a huge fix.

Ramping damage was never a good design. Armies usually have the highest DPS at the start of a fight, before units are killed, so a unit that starts out with a fraction of its damage is at a huge disadvantage. Ramping damage cannot compensate for this unless the unit is extremely overpowered after it has Winded/wound up), and that creates other problems. As an aside, why does “wind” have two past-tense forms that are each spelled exactly the same as the past tense for other words.

I actually prefer Brood War over WOL and HOTS, but to each their own.

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I just feel like I’m fighting against the game more than I’m playing against my opponent in BW most of the time. The QoL changes alone from sc1 to sc2 make sc2 worth playing far more than BW IMO.

The pathing and selection limits are annoying, but I tend to prefer some of the units and other mechanics.

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That’s understandable. It’s not for me but I can appreciate it!

I much prefer the faster-paced game myself. I really don’t think I would play this game as much if I had to constantly play 30+ min games. Turtle games are also by far the most boring. I’m glad I can now play mostly 6-15 min games where expanding is encouraged.

Is your profile correct? I’m wondering how you can have such strong opinions on everything when your highest finish is platinum league. Perhaps I’m missing something…

This isn’t my real account, only for posting.

Well, enjoy your gambling coin flip 1min game time tower defense moba arcade unit spam not RTS game play that is LOTV. There still is a few people playing it, but mostly noobs.

Everyone also quit posting on this forum years ago, including myself until now.

Forced LOTV ladder killed sc2 after they removed WOL and Hots ladder.

While games like AoE has ladder for all the expansions with AoE2 being everyone’s favorite over AoE4 for the hardcore players. Just like the noobs that think LOTV is better than WOL and HOTS, there are people that play AoE4 ladder over AoE2.

AoE4 is a completely different game than AoE 2. False equivalency. It’s like saying SC1 still has a ladder and so does SC2. Two different games.

If you took the players now and brought them back in time to the WoL and HotS ladder, there may be a short re-learning period, but they would unequivocally be better than players of the equivalent league back then. That is the nature of the game and the nature of improvement.

To say that they’re “Noobs” for playing LotV is hilarious and just makes you look even more stupid than you already do repeating the same impotent arguments that have already been beaten to death in this thread by several people with no actual coherent response from you other than what amounts to sticking your head in the sand and screaming “Nu-uh!”

It is a 13 year old game. You can’t expect the everyone, or even large amounts of people to sit around for 13 years continually posting on the same site. Especially when sites like Reddit exist as well.


AoE 2 is a 24 years old game and a million people still play it, right now AoE2 has 60k players playing, and 20k viewers on twitch at the time of this post. And sc1 is a 26 year old game with a huge following player base still, pros make 30k a month playing sc1 in Korea. Chess is 1500 years old, it never had one single patch or any dev support in 1500 years and it has a billion players world wide today.

Your reasoning logic is flawed, as you are constantly proved wrong by many people on this forum including myself.

Have a nice day!

You literally just proved my point. Sc2 regularly gets thousands of viewers, especially during tournaments.

Sc1 is really only big in KR specifically, but SC1 is also KR’s national sport.

Sc2 currently has 5.1 million players online across all servers as of this month. There is 1.21 million ladder games played across all servers (1v1 and teams) per day. GSL is community funded and maxes out the funding goal every GSL. ESL has its weekly tournaments which get a few thousand viewers for the minor weeklies, and a lot more watching the premiers live, not to mention the VoDs.

SC2 within the last week had 26k viewers peak, and averaged 3.5k viewers… Which is slightly more than AoE2 - AoE2 had a peak of 20k viewers in the last week

AOE2 Currently has 17k viewers, almost all of which is covering the Warlords 50,000$ Tournament. How many does it have when there isn’t a tournament going on? Around the same as AoE4 and Sc2 both; the 3 of them average around 3.5-4k viewers daily, sometimes more sometimes less.

Stats taken from:


And again, is a completely different game that has a set series of moves and counter moves you can do. RTS is very, very different. This is called False Equivalence.

You haven’t proved me wrong once and it’s hilarious that you think you have. Still, I’m happy to admit when I’m wrong, and have done so in the past. But you haven’t proven that even once, and considering your generally inept arguments are flawed at best, well, I don’t expect you ever will.


Age of Empires 2 keeps getting significant updates, and even expansions, to keep it relevant. Practically no one is playing the original 1999 game anymore, which is more or less what you are requesting with WOL. Playing WOL now would be like playing Age of Empires II without even the Conqueror’s expansion.

Steam currently lists the original “Age of Empires 2” as “Age of Empires 2 (2013)”. That includes the Conqueror’s expansion, and it is usually further improved with the Forgotten Empires expansion.

The most recent version of Age of Empires II is the definitive edition, which has numerous QOL fixes (improved hot-keys, attack-move, increased selection limits, fixed order-queuing), and new techs, new civilizations, and other changes to keep it relevant. Playing the AOE2 definitive edition todays is roughly equivalent to playing the latest patch of LOTV (or arguably a new expansion after that which SC2 is never going to get).

StarCraft 1 is far better made than WOL and HOTS, in terms of game balance. It doesn’t have problems like the WOL Brood Lord + Infestor composition, where the game becomes extremely lopsided in favor of one race after a certain point because a composition has no effective counters.


Blizzard does not disclose active player base numbers with the public, so you are lying and just making stuff up.

Your argument was that sc2 is so old now and that is why the forums and ladder is dead compared to what it was just a few years ago before the sc2 went free to play only allowing people to ladder with LOTV moba arcade tower defense 5min tier 3 units.

Chess is 1500 years old and has 1Billon active players, so your reasoning to why a 13 year old game’s player base is on the decline is flawed, as the majority of players were unhappy with LOTV and Blizzard removing WOL and HOTS ladder for no good reason when they both had more active players than LOTV does right now today.

That is incorrect as all 3 races had strong spell casters, Ravens Infestor and high templar could all counter each another and came down to individual player skill. It sounds like you never played WOL and you are just doing google searches and finding misleading information and then repeating it. Good players especially Terrans would end the game before Zerg could ever come close to a maxed out Brood Lord army, this is how the game was designed, and late game Zerg still could be countered by a good player.

I literally linked the sites that I got the stats from, and they illustrate how they get the stats. You really are just an idiot.

You are the one that said it’s dead. I simply said it had less players than it did on launch, which is natural. Don’t go putting words in my mouth.

Ah yes, Ravens which were never used in WoL because they were worthless and stupid expensive since HSM was a slow moving projectile, High Templar which got nerfed so they couldn’t have warp in storms, and Infestors which were unequivocally the best of the trio with instant-fungal growth, literal armies of free units that scale off upgrades and Neural parasite to take control of your opponents units. Please tell me how they’re equal to each other when history says otherwise by literally every metric.

Hell, lets add the Ghost in there for sh!ts and giggles, since they were arguably at their worst point after they were nerfed so hard even Zerg players were questioning why they were hit as hard as they were.

Translation - Terran had to all-in and end the game before 10 minutes or they immediately lost the game to a unit composition that was literally un-counterable for them unless they outplayed their opponent so hard that they would never have been playing in the first place.

Protoss at least had some chance vs Zerg with the Archon toilet, but that was a slim one that frankly was hit and miss at best.