Dude,I didn’t say that T had to turtle since the beginning. T start turtling when they see the lurker transition until they have a good amount of ghosts. Obviously if T turtles from the start Z gets an insane advantage.
Problem is once a game is figured out the fundamentals of how people play change, whatever was seen difficult and complex in the beginning becomes the norm. Think rocket/strafe jumping in quake, or csgo quick awp quick scoping.
Originally the design in sc2:lotv was good… but, after everyone understood how everything worked protoss ball armies or massing queens for a Z army support became the way to play…
Then you should be more precise. If your statements have holes in them, you can’t blame a reader for doing the native mental work of filing them; and assume the reader will be less flattering to you than you would.
This is actually not true at the highest level. Lurker transitions are broadcasted pretty well to an active Terran and leave plenty of time to get ghosts and libs out while still remaining aggressive on the map. You don’t see Clem retreat his army and turtle because he sees a hydra den and hive on the way. In fact, you typically see him put on even more pressure during the transition as forcing Zerg to spend gas on Banelings and replacement Hydras buys the time necessary to have 5-7 ghosts with energy fielded to lay down snipes. Then by the time the Lurkers have a range upgrade you have easily 10 ghosts ready to euthenize them before they can even lay down a spine
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I’ve been playing this game for 8 years and have played tens of thousands of games however I’ve probably watched more. Both watching and playing combined I have over 10,000 hours easily dedicated to SC2. After I stopped playing competitively my only interest in the game was figuring out how it works down to the smallest detail and why certain strategies work and others do not.
When you’re someone like Artosis who has consumed probably 5x the amount of Starcraft I have if not more then you don’t have to look at statistics or a bunch of games to come to the conclusion that something is a bad strategy or build order.
The reason for this is that once you have seen a certain amount of Starcraft you stop thinking about it in a schema like build orders and you just see the whole game for what it is and how the mechanics work.
This is why I can say confidently that a single base battlecruiser rush is a terrible build without ever needing to see it play out on a ladder game. If you play 1000 games yes some of those will be successful but the strategy is flawed from a game mechanics basis.
At the highest level a hellbat attack will never work unless the opponent is not expecting it, and I’m not talking about killing your opponent, I’m talking about doing any damage at all. At diamond and above a scouted hellbat attack is a defended one, when you compare it to other builds Terran has at their disposal it doesn’t make sense to use an inferior build unless it’s designed to kill someone who is weak to it, however playing the player doesn’t say anything about the design of the game.
The issue with trying to judge balance AT ALL from the basis of statistics, ladder or pro tournament alike, is because even in the case of imbalance a loss is 99.9% the result of human error. The reason why pro games are the best example for balance is because it’s an example of how the game is supposed to be played and has the least amount of human error.
Could you judge the effectiveness of the rules of basketball by watching 6th grade basketball games? I’m sure you could maybe glean something but at that level the skill isn’t high enough to where it’s scraping on the very edges of the rule book. It’s the same case for using any statistics. Even at the highest level of SC2 the level varies WIDELY from a top NA GM to Serral or Clem. At what level is human error low enough for a definitive statement on balance to be possible?
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Which is why it should be blatantly obvious that there is no amount of games that a person could watch that magically makes them understand the game. It’s literally his job and he still doesn’t understand basic concepts like the meta as is evidenced by his comments on the hellbat allins.
Oh really. Ok. Let’s put this godly understanding to work. Please detail what the most valuable resource is in the late game and why. I am prepared to laugh.
Blatantly false.
You clearly don’t understand the very basics of this game. Let me explain it to you. SC2 is a game of burying your opponent in so many problems that they can’t solve them fast enough and make a critical error. That’s the entire game in a nutshell. You say that you can’t measure balance because of human error? You have no clue what you are talking about. This game is literally designed around human error. Human error is the point of the game. Balance is a measure of if and when one race is less likely to commit errors for the same level of skill and effort. This is not negotiable. This is fact you can either agree with it or I can block you and forget you exist.
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What are you even trying to say here?
There is no “most valuable” late game resource. The late game is won by efficiency and positioning. Better positioning = better efficiency and then your increased efficiency allows for superior positioning. This is why late game is a dance.
Not false. Only time hellbat attacks work is if the opponent is not ready for them. At the highest level this would be due to hiding information and mind games. This would be playing the player rather than playing to the strengths of the meta game. There are LOADS of builds that can definitely work but are not strong in the current meta because they are not best suited to take advantage of the absolute strengths of a race.
So while hellbat attacks can work it’s not for the reasons you are positing, but rather in spite of them.
Players like Ruff who specialize in builds that are fundamentally inefficient but still win do so by mastery of the style and most player’s inability to adapt on the fly to such an odd play style, sorta like fighting a south paw if you aren’t used to it. This doesn’t mean that Ruff’s play style says something absolute about Terran’s strengths in the meta, it is solely due to human error.
Ah yes, I’ve beaten top 50 grandmasters in tournaments yet I do not understand how this game works xDDDDDDDD
No, Starcraft is not a game about burying your opponents in so many problems. That is a PART of the game and something you can only do if you are faster than your opponent.
The style of play you are describing is how someone like Clem or Reynor plays the game. On the flip side Serral creates situations where you are forced to make a decision and the chances are you will make a wrong one and he does this over and over throughout the game slowly accumulating a lead.
Yes I agree balancei s a measure of what you said it was, but your very definition agrees with my analysis that in order for you to measure balance zero human error would need to be presence for an absolute statement. Getting an opponent to F up in a certain situation is not a statement of balance. If both built up to their race’s perfect position and played the game out as perfectly as possible and one race came out on top every time that would be a sign of imbalance. Nothing you have stated has invalidated anything that I have said.
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As is clearly proven by statements such as this:
Anyone with even the most minuscule understanding of economics knows that all economic systems transition to information economies; even the late and great George Orwell understood this back in the 1950’s. A guy back in the 1950’s understood SC2 better than you do kid and he’s never played a single game. Let that sink in. Information is always the most valuable resource in an economy.
Helllbat builds “work” all the time; games are won using the hellbat builds and also won indirectly due to how the hellbat builds shape the meta and affect the opponents’ decision making. Saying that they “don’t work” is pure delusion plain and simple. Even when they lose games they are working as intended because the opponent isn’t playing as greedy as he could in the absence of these builds, or he would have died to these builds. In losing the game, the hellbats have proven how effective they are. Why do I have to explain this to someone who has “beaten top 50 grandmasters xDDDDD”?
Original Post, I absolutely agree. SCbw was such a fun game in strategy with counters and specialties. Current meta is absolutely lame. I’ll comment on Each Race’s:
----(excluding casters)----
Units available to attack air
Air units options
Warships
Air bi-attacker Units’ Range
Armored-Air speed
All Air-attacking Units:
- Z has 4. Two Ground and 2* Air. (* for 1 being air-only-attacker)
- P has 6. Two Ground and 4 Air. (esentially all are bi-attackers; no *, cause Phoenix effectively attacks ground units on a constant by way of specialty).
- T has 7. Five Ground, and 2 Air. (All are Bi-attackers)
Clearly, by this alone we can see a serious deficit in Z’s options for dealing against air Units. Also in conjuction with Z’s lack of options, Corrupters are the game’s Only unit that Only attack air units.
For Air Units options:
- Z has 3. One Light armored bi-attackers, and two armored specific-attackers.
- T has 4. Three armored bi-attackers. One light specific-attacker.
- P has 4. All 4 are bi-attackers. Two light, and two armored.
Clearly we can see here why Protoss “Air” is synonymous with “death ball”.
Each Race’s Available “Warships” (Heavy Armored-Air Bi-Attacker):
- Z: NONE
(Broodlord specific-attacker, armor 2)
(Corruptor specific-attacker, armor 3) - T: Battlecrusier, armor 4.
- P: Tempest, armor 3; Carrier, Armor 3.
Here we see no “warship” option for Z. Instead they must split resources into the only Air-Armored options of which both are specific-only-attackers. Thus limiting versatility. Also Noting the low Armor and speed of the Broodlord yet with high cost…
Range of each races Air Bi-attackers:
- Z: Range for: Muta, 3.
- T: Range for: Viking, 6/9. Liberator, 13/5. Battlecruiser, 6.
- P: Phoenix: 7. Voidray: 6. Carrier: 12. Tempest: 10/14.
Now here we see again an extreme limit on versatility for Z. For if they need Range, they cannot use Bi-air attackers, rather only options are only the two armored-specific-only-attackers.
Last, Each Armored-Air unit’s speed:
- Z: All Specific-Only-Attackers; Corruptor, 4.7 Broodlord, 1.97
- T: All Bi-Attackers; Viking, 3.85 Liberator, 3.72 Battlecruiser, 2.6
- P: Tempest, 3.15 Carrier, 2.62
Here we see Zerg having the oxy-moron of no armored-air bi-attackers, and the fastest and the slowest of armored air… wtf?
Conclusion,
Zerg’s stock Air army is deficient in versatility, ability and options. With the Broodlord: Suffering in speed (Counter intuitive to most of Z forces), relatively low armor and low life especially when compared to resource cost, and then limited with being the only “heavy”-armored unit that is a specific-ground-only-Attacker. With the Corruptor remaining the sole air-specific-attacker in the game, thus limiting versatility. Mutalisk suffers from extreme short range that limits most uses, and doesn’t even mutate into anything anymore… wtf?
In late game against Air, Zerg has serious deficiencies. This is especially against Protoss where in Zerg MUST massively try to compensate with creep, sporecrawlers, and casters.
Batz is an insane person but he’s 100% right about Artosis here. It’s embarrassing that you’re defending him, he has no talent or intelligence and no matter how much time he puts into any game he will always be a awful at it
The funny thing is that your rank is basically diamond relative to me and batz and we both agree here that hellbat all ins can work fine. In all these years you’re still that same kid that posted a basketball video to prove how fast he plays SC2.
LMAO ofc you’d bring that sport up again.
That’s one of two ways to play the game. Alternatively you can play styles where you’re more greedy and then attempt to not let your opponent bury you in problems, and in that defence come out in a superior position.
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grubby from war3 plays AOE4
thermy play AOE4
Both games (war3 and sc2) are abandoned in a crappy way.
Heroes of the storm too, just played for fun by some
Hearthstone, no1 likes it much anymore
OW is the little that’s left
even their World of Warcraft is on decline, no one cares what expansion Z they wanna bring, last ones were not greeted nicely
Even though ActiBlizz need $$$ their greed destroys a long time community, even if the world is no more such strategy games, you can’t abandon it all and just go for the cash grab games ignoring what you have been having for all these years. What they had to do is show and DO things to either keep this game or make a new such strategy game. But the capable people are on other companies so… no reason to kiss the S of these any further.
What is still left is to observe this game (SC2) for some major tourney and laugh at a game where protoss is involved (usually the upsets happen when one of the two is this race), I dont see a reason to try hard on it anymore, tho
Lmao this guy.
Sure, we will see how this Scam/Ponzi Scheme will end (badly).
It is preposterous when companies that produce next to nothing (Google/Facebook etc) have “value” higher than Automotive or Oil Giants…
Those morons are for a big surprise.
There are solutions to all problems in this game which would require around 1% of development time already spent on it. This changes could DOUBLE the quality and fun of the game. The problem is that this would require a MAJOR rebalancing. At this point Blizzard basically thinks that this game is “done” and that’s the main problem. The reality is that almost NOBODY works on this game anymore and only small balance patches will be done in the future. In order to fix this game completely a major, DEEP update is needed and that won’t happen. The problem is that fixing a complex game like SC2 requires AMAZING knowledge of the game, deep intelligence and creativity. That calls for a master designer and Dustin Browder wasn’t one, even when he was on board.
Batz, I make my fulltime living off of trades and investing. Your academic wizardry is not going to fool me. I have studied economics in a tertiary fashion so you throwing out big words and old intellectual names isn’t going to make me go “Oh my god this man I’m talking to is a genius” I’m not a 13 year old anymore xD
Information economies? Bruh, wtf are you talking about. Late game SC2 is about who gets better army engagements and can slowly accumulate more space on the map. Late game is literally defined by ALL available information being understood. What is their army? Where are they expanding? How is he/she positioning themselves on the map?
This information has to be figured out for late game to commence. Once this information is know then it becomes a positional chess match where efficiency and positioning become the most important factors. Economics at the end of the game are boiled down to singular important bases and who can engage more efficiently to gain as many resources as possible.
If anything the early game is where an “information” economy would be more appropriate as a description, unless of course “information economy” means something so incredibly intellectual that I could not possibly comprehend it with my smooth brain IQ. But unfortunately I known how to use a very helpful tool called GOOGLE:
Information economics or the economics of information is a branch of that studies how information and information systems affect an [economy]
and economic decisions. Information has special characteristics: It is easy to create but hard to trust. It is easy to spread but hard to control. It influences many decisions. These special characteristics (as compared with other types of goods) complicate many standard economic theories.
This branch of economics best describes early and mid game. It does not describe a game where all available information is known and now it’s about efficiency.
Why do you think the best players in the world all play for the late game? It’s because that’s where no more trickery is possible and better micro and decision making wins. The early and mid game is where information is to be understood and you can lose simply by making the wrong choice of path.
I would expect a normal person to understand what I’m saying but because you’re batz I expect a 300 IQ response that is beyond my mortal ability to understand. It will require 15 years of zen training and the summoning of all my chakras plus a meeting with Einstein’s spirit remains in this dimension to decode your next response. I will be ready I assure you. No one has ever accused me of not taking training seriously.
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As I’ve grown older I’ve become increasingly more accustomed with this trick. When I was 13 years old I was unprepared to deal with people like you but given that I’ve matured heavily since that time I’ve gained some wisdom on this particular matter.
I never realized when I was 13 and making grandiose claims about how good I wanted to be at the game that I was unintentionally rubbing people’s egos the wrong way. I never said those things to be better than others, it was my genuine aspiration to get to GM and be good at the game.
When you’re in middle school you’re still figuring out who you are and what you want to be. I’ve always been very competitive and driven, not towards others, but towards myself. It took me YEARS to realize that this made people insecure around me. It happened to my brother as well. He has been extremely successful in pursuits just like me due to his ability to just “do the work” and not giving af about the limits others set on him. Everyone has a judgement for how good you can be, and it’s never as high as your own, so we follow our own standards and it’s worked out pretty well for us.
I never got to GM but I didn’t leave SC2 until I felt like I had gotten to the skill level I wanted to. I got to M1, I beat all of the players that talked trash to me on the forums, GM’s and non GM’s alike. I took maps off pro gamers in tournament qualifiers, top grandmasters in clan wars etc. I had pretty much proven everything I needed to in order to satisfy my craving for achievement in this game.
After that I’ve come back every once and while to check in on the game and community and to see how it’s going. I’ve been playing and watching this game for 8 years and I know quite a lot about it. However every single time I try to use my knowledge to make an argument I get harassed with the “13 year old point guard apm” stuff.
This is because when I was young I had an ego and therefore it could be poked to get me off my game. It wasn’t until I reigned in my ego and focused on myself that I saw through what was going on.
You never responded to my arguments, you never addressed my points, and it’s because you can’t, because I am correct, and your response proved it. Your only defense against my position is maybe, just maybe you can poke my ego and get me to relinquish my understanding that I’m correct, which is how everyone who has hated me on these forums have done.
The only crime I ever committed was being confident in my ability to succeed at anything, and guess what? I have used that very same thing to become great at other things outside of SC2. The lessons I learned from making people insecure and angry at my confidence in myself on these forums have been invaluable, because now I know how to react to people like you irl when I see them. Don’t talk to them, because they have no interest in a rational conversation, they treat discussions like these as a battlefield for victory or defeat. I do not, and therefore the only definition of victory or defeat for me is whether or not your argument stands up to scrutiny. Considering you made zero arguments I don’t see where to go from here.
I find it funny that my not giving af about others judgement of me still rubs people here the wrong way. When I was younger I would get into arguments about it but now I do not because I find it funny and pathetic that grown up adults with do that to someone else.
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But ppl in 20s think they know so much… in fact this is where they are deluded but in fact they know nothing. If the age you describe is when you played sc2 early on you aint much older now…
I started playing Starcraft at 13, which was 8 years ago. Can confirm that I don’t know much, however I’ve had many crazy life experiences that have taught me a lot. Stayed at a cult camp and filmed a documentary, had multiple near death experiences, went through a toxic relationship with gaslighting, manipulation, lying etc. had a to excommunicate a crazy business associate, had months where I couldn’t afford to buy food and had to scrape together every last penny to keep s*it afloat while appearing completely normal to everybody else so they don’t freak out etc.
The people that I’m talking to have known me since I was 13 and assume that I haven’t changed since that time and still talk to me the way they did when I first came here. It gives me a chuckle because they have no clue who they’re talking to anymore, nor did they ever really, but the person they’re talking to isn’t the person on the other side of the screen.
I find it interesting that people think they know so much about you from comments you made on the internet. I don’t presume to know anything about anyone here except for the posts I’ve read. If I were to make assumptions about who they were that went beyond that I’d just be assuming things I couldn’t possibly know. It isn’t even a courtesy, it’s a fact.
Even though I am young, it doesn’t mean that bringing up comments I made 8 years ago have any bearing on the things I have just said. This isn’t an abnormal thing on these forums, though. Everybody here believes they have clairvoyance of your intentions, personality, knowledge etc. Batz is literally the greatest example of this. However, in the honor of the great Batz, I am going to attempt to psychoanalyze every piece of this dialogue. You be the judge of my analysis.
I made one simple point, that being:
After you’ve consumed a certain amount of SC you understand how the game works and can make judgements on the effectiveness of strategies without needing to see how every game plays out
Batz responds by “testing” my knowledge by asking “What the most important late game resource is” a question that is intentionally designed by Batz, who is famous for doing this btw, for your answer to be a springboard into a 300,000 IQ explanation of how you are utterly incorrect, barely above the intelligence of a Orangutan, and an example of the shining brilliance of Batz’s unquestionably superior intellect.
My answer being that the most important late game factor is positioning and efficiency (Which is correct btw lol which you’d know if you were asking the question to get an actual answer instead of trying to manipulate people into looking stupid so you can satisfy your online ego)
His response (actually laughing while writing this) is to claim that I have ZERO understanding of economics WHATSOVER and the correct answer, according to professor Batz, is an information economy.
I don’t know if you’re familiar with Batz but if you are you’d know exactly what this is. He does this ALL the time, and he’s done it for YEARS. He truly is the master, or master in his own head, of appearing more intelligent than everyone in every conversation that he’s had, but the funny thing is that to anybody looking at it from the outside it’s clear that his own psychology is just playing out in the conversation for anyone to see. aka he just wants me to look stupid so he can win forum brownie points.
Keep in mind that his divergent point about information economies was his way of making me look dumb but it’s his way of escaping the true locus of the conversation which was my point about Artosis being able to claim hellbat builds are bad because he’s seen so much SC he knows from a game mechanics basis they aren’t the best build to go for.
His response to my agreement with this was saying that they work for precisely the same reasons I said they work, aka the opponent F’s up and therefore they work, when in practicality the original point of the conversation was discussing what works on an optimized basis, not assuming that you’re opponent is going to make mistakes.
This dude literally creates mazes in his conversations so that he can juke you into a totally different conversation that he is correct in and then proclaim victory of the WHOLE thing without ever realizing that he just agreed with everything I said but worded it to make it sound like I was wrong and he was right xD
The next guy, don’t even know who tf he is, responds to my point by bringing up s*it that happened 8 years ago and bringing up my ladder ranking, with zero responses to my actual argument.
This is why this is the greatest forum on the internet because people are so pathological it’s a spectacle whenever you attempt to have a rational conversation.
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The best to use from life on this game is self-criticism/self-reflection and discipline. Many assume that im one of those that played this game with A move (or stim move) and never learn what and why but I’ve analysed every game I’ve made and when Im saying things against protoss for example, it is be cause things I saw in their play simply did not show more effort but in fact, less. But it’s the design of SC2 but as I said i dont really care much about this game, im here to bash the trollish ppp posts written by few individuals when the BS-meter gets too high.
This forum should find a way to purge some sick scumbags that have infested the debate for a long time.
On a more serious note:
============================
Under U.S. federal law, someone commits the felony of stalking if that person:
- places another person in reasonable fear of death or serious bodily injury to him- or herself, his or her immediate family member, or spouse or intimate partner
- causes, attempts to cause, or could reasonably be expected to cause substantial emotional distress to the target of their conduct, or
- acts with the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate, or place the victim under surveillance in order to kill, injure, harass, or intimidate that person.
(18 USC § 2261A.)
In order to violate the federal, as opposed to a state, anti-stalking law, a person must either travel across state lines, into or out of tribal land, or engage in interstate commerce in the commission of the crime. Most people charged with the federal crime of stalking have engaged in interstate commerce by simply using a telephone, the Internet, or the U.S. postal service. The federal anti-stalking law expressly includes the use of an electronic communications system as a means of violating the federal anti-stalking law.