Exactly. Observers don’t come out faster than WM drops. You can get a cannon…but that is basically throwing the game vs T.
No one would ever make a Mine that was so expensive.
In the bast case scenario:
Protoss detection is online at 2 minutes 47 seconds(first obs)
First WM drop(1 medivac and 2 mines) will be at 3 minutes
So no Protoss has Observer before WM drop.
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WM was nerfed due to Proxy Factory that is active at 2 minutes 19 seconds(first WM) making proxy mine vs toss guaranteed damage. To counter that Toss will have to go static defense, those place themself from the start at a disadvantage.
Blizzard doesn’t like it if there is a build that places another player at a guaranteed disadvantage(without the ability to counter the build).
Oracle was like that too.
I’m hesitant to believe that fastest timing for an observer vs fastest time for Widow Mine drop. I’ll test in a bit to make sure but if I’m wrong, I’ll happily eat my humble pie.
Right now WM cost 75 25 and 2 supply. Sometimes it lives long enough to do second shot, but usually it doesn’t.
100 0 1 supply is cheaper, right?
lol no to counter that Protoss needs to look at minimap. It takes forever for WM to burrow and fire before DC upgrade. Then you’ll have to sacrifice one probe to discharge the mine, but that would be too little damage to justify the cost.
However, presence of WM burrowed in your mineral line until you have detection is not a nice thing lol. It forced you to get detection early, thus strongly limiting build variety thus making match boring to watch thus Blizz nerfed the WM.
From that point o view WM nerf was justified.
Same with Oracles. Every Terran build had to be hard counter to Oracles, because if it is not, proxy Oracle will clear all of your mineral line (its really hilarious to hear complains about how unfair WM drop is, when on average it (2 WM drop) kills about 7-8 probes if Protoss don’t react at all when Oracle back then could just kill all SCVs if Terran was not ready).
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The hallucination is not free, it still cost energy that you could use for guardian shield or force fields. the hallucinate unit can be denied more easily since it takes double damage. Sentry is also not a good unit to build since the expensive 100 gas price tag. It would be a different story if sentry only cost mineral to build but right now, I rather upgrade my unit or save up for other more impactful unit.
“Scan cost Terran player ~250 minerals” is true if it actually cost 250 minerals instead of FREE energy, which generate overtime btw. You also don’t build just one CC, only brain dead bronze league T would do that. 300 mineral to build a building in safe spot and have it be impactful for entire game is better than a unit that cost 100 gas and will die or become useless mid-late game.
TL;DR “Which is better? hallu phoenix or Scan?”
Well, I use only once or twice hallu phoenix compared to 100+ scans so clearly, the hallu phoenix is better.
if i remember it was when they removed photon pylon, they were scaired WM will have crushed Protoss in PvT (WM drop were used nearly all games at this time).
For god sake. You should stop quoting someone posts or learn to read with understanding
The parts you omitted clearly say “Was nerfed” those I was talking about previews version of WM with Drilling Claws available at build time and previews version of Oracle that 2 hit SCV
Both require a specific response that allows a limited response to other builds (to the point that if pro misread build it was much better to forfeit the round).
O and I am waiting for you to point me to the video showing this Alex007 or other “Pro” Terran that uses 10-20 chargelots without auto-cast in a match.
lolwhat?
So exactly like I said: both Oracle and WM were nerfed to allow more build variety.
It was one of his ideas he talked about in a video that he made to prove his point about Chargelots being OP in TvP. He didn’t went into details and he wasn’t making such mod obviously.
I can give you link to the video of course if you want, but its not in English
When such high level player are voicing their opinion we better listen.
Wouldn’t the Sentry energy regenerate by the time you’ll need Guardian Shield anyway?
I have not seen pretty much any high level game where first scouting Phoenix was killed before it scouted practically everything (in TvP).
This energy is supposed to be spent on mules.
If you don’t spend them on mules, you have less army/delayed CC and production.
I use scan - I either have less army when I attack you, or my push comes later. Both is an advantage for you. Advantage that can very well cost me the game.
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It was nerfed because low level Protoss were struggling vs mine drops.
Just like how the Observer is randomly getting nerfed because apparently a low level Terran complained.
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“Wouldn’t the Sentry energy regenerate by the time you’ll need Guardian Shield anyway?” could be applied to CC. By the time you need scan, you would have 3 CC anyway so no big deal if you lost one or two mules. However, CC is in safety and only cost mineral while sentry cost gas and can be sniped (rare but still a possibility in early engagement).
“I have not seen pretty much any high level game where first scouting Phoenix was killed before it scouted practically everything (in TvP).” It was because it wasn’t worth it considering that the hallu phoenix will die on it own pretty quick (even quicker if sentry hallu it at his base). The only time it worth to denied phoenix is when you try to cheese with high tech(dark shrine for protoss, fusion for T, greater spire for Z) which is not hard.
The CC is like this: “Get free 250+ minerals” “revealed a portion of the map”. Both of these are free and is an advantage for you one way or the other. You can get more army or more intel. Advantage that can very well cost me the game.
The argument that Scan costs minerals because it doesn’t drop a Mule is completely flawed. A scan costs 50 energy, not minerals. The Mule is the Opportunity Cost of the scan, not the actual cost, and the difference between them is huge. One of the key aspects of evaluating the opportunity costs is how the selected item gives value. A mule will give you minerals, while a scan can perfectly save your game while enabling to destroy several DTs (for example) worth of investment by the enemy. The scan is chosen there because the value it gives outweighs the opportunity cost of a mule, hence complaining about the lost mule is stupid when the scan in that instance gives a higher value than could be obtained by the mule.
An example. You know the opportunity cost of making 4 lings? 2 Drones. Those 2 drones mining 40 minerals per minute each approximately give more or less 80 minerals per minute, in 5 minute that would have been 400 minerals. Hence, if we take opportunity cost to be equivalent to actual cost, a reaper would be extremely overpowered because a 50/50 investment makes a zerg player that defends it with 4 lings lose 400 minerals in 5 minutes, more as the game progresses, in “lost” drones. However, those lings have the value of pushing back the reaper, providing possible scouting information and other general uses one might give them, making them at the time worth more value than the 2 drones.
A scan costs 50 energy. 0 minerals. The opportunity cost for the energy spenditure is a Mule, but the cost of the scan is 50 energy. 0 minerals.
Its also funny to see people crying that infested terrans are “free units” but scans are not “free” by the same standards. The both have a cost. 50 energy. 0 other resources. Different opportunity costs but same actual cost.
Quit complaining that scans cost minerals because they don’t.
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You quoted a sentence in my post out of context those showing that your reading ability is limited. I don’t want you to quote my posts until you learn to read with a full understanding of what you read.
On WM you say:
The first paragraph says about the current version of WM that I never addressed in my post.
Second, say about limiting build variation those making game boring and this is false.
-Terran can go 1:1:1 those having the ability to select bio/mech at a later time.
-Protoss can select Stargate/Robo( both have detection) and even switch between them. Condition for the switch is Protoss doesn’t commit to upgrades and production.
WM and Oracle (first versions) forced players to go builds that make it hard to defend against any other builds those having no counterplay.
for example:
if Toss goes yolo Tech to get Observer ASAP then any other timing attack was deadly.
if Terran goes marines to counter Proxy Stargate then Zealot/Stalker timing was deadly.
Figures another high-level player that talking from his a*s. 
I’m not GM or Pro but contrary to this Alex007 or people that claim charge should be manual without even trying it out in a match,
I did turn off charge auto-casting in a match. Imagine having to “Lock-on” charging zerglings with 10-20 Cyclone at the range of 4 and without the ability to move back. This is what it feels to use charge manually.
yea, and the same can be said to the other unit except that we can’t see anything if you denied the said unit. With Terran, you don’t have to worry about such thing.
As for spending 300 minerals… I don’t see that price tag on the CC. If you try to say that the mule worth 300 minerals, then you haven’t lost anything because that mule is basically a free gain, just like the intel. It a “gain more mineral” or “gain more intel”. How the fk do you go from a “gain” to a “lost”?
You’re not going to “deny” a speed overlord (only 25/25 more than a reaper, btw), it’s just not going to happen. You can “kind of” deny a phoenix, but it’s much harder to deny than a Reaper (1 building and put your stalkers up front).
I honestly cannot understand why you don’t get the 300 minerals opportunity cost that early in the game is borderline build breaking/build enabling. You ever try to hit a timing? Now try doing it if you’re just not allowed to use mules.
it is the same as 100 gas. If 300 mineral is such a big opportunity cost, then 100 gas is even more so. What can you do with 300 minerals? some harass, some extra unit. What can you do with 100 gas? more upgrade, more tech, better unit that actually win the game.
If you compare the two, it is laughable to even try. Let’s not mention that CC is a building that relevant all game while sentry is not.
Dude, let me ask you, do you think it’s a coincidence that every pro makes a reaper in every match up? You think that’s a coincidence? You think that them sacrificing the Reaper is just because they don’t want that extra 50 gas/minerals? You really going to tell me that a dead reaper (which should get ZERO kills if you have any map knowledge whatsoever) is worth more in the midgame than +2 armor for your entire force?
Jesus, people just will not admit a single advantage about their own race.
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reaper can take a potential of 1-2 workers(some time more depend on elo), deny a new base until opponent make unit and that by itself is more worth than a fking scan combine with reaper unit cost and it also do what scan can do. Jesus, I don’t even know why you put yourself in such a disadvantage when you try to argue.
The advantage of building a reaper is wayyyyyyyy more better than what you get from a sentry.
+2 armor for entire force is under the circumstance that the opponent do not build tank, and just dead set on building marine, and sentry has to stay alive during the engagement, and protoss has to slow down his tech choice, and… you get the point… but in case you don’t: 75 energy, and deal no dmg for such a high cost unit, and the spell that this unit offer can be countered and… wait, maybe this is all the down side that this unit has? but then again, I don’t see this much downside on a unit compare to Terran unit/building such as CC or reaper.
No one above, say, Diamond 1, loses a single miner to a Reaper often enough for it to be considered a “harass unit.” 2? Give me a f*cking break.
Nope. New meta is to drop the 3rd before the Reaper even gets there. You can put the scouting SCV there (assuming you don’t mind being behind that 80 to 100 miners depending on map), if you want, but then you lose even more mining time, and the Zerg will just take the other 3rd.
Look, bro. End of the day, you are platinum, right? Like, it’s really not up for debate that Terran has the weakest scouting. We just do. Saying we don’t is like me complaining that Zerg has too more build diversity, it’s an idiotic claim.
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