That is what we will see with radius 2.0 EMP vs Toss. It will kill Templar play in TvP like it did in WoL. It was nerfed for a reason.
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Templar play in PvT is still really good. Right now you frequently see tech switches between Templar, Colossus and Disruptors. LOTV is such a different game compared to the trainwreck of WoL.
That’s better than Storm owning everything.
Also EMP doesn’t drain the entire energy of casters, it only drains 100.
It was nerfed for a reason.
Protoss players don’t know how to split HT’s up anymore, also use the Warp Prism to protect your HT’s and laugh at the ghosts. They are so used to balling them up. But it’s not as bad as Zergs which mass Infestors to destroy everything.
Maybe nerf on Charge won’t come online as it would be even harder to hold Terran’s tank timing push without extra damage. However, if Protoss relies on adepts, it just won’t solve the dilemma as the mothership core was gone and early defense for Protoss would just be harder.
What Protoss need is buffs on early defense and late-game. For example, we can shorten the build time of Carrier’s interceptors, roll back the damage HT’s feedback can deal on other spell casters, and make tempest a stronger unit. Nerfs on some of the gateway units may be a cost, just as the balance team is doing now, but buffs are not enough.
Tempest are already getting a HP buff.
No. Players like being able to use energy units against Protoss now and realistically that would solve nothing because Fungal and EMP out range feedback in cast range and they are AOE.
It’s already been shortened.
Exactly… feedback has less range than most spells and is single target. It’s really not effective at all against infestors or ghosts, because both fungal, infested terran, and EMP all out-range it. So currently, even if feedback did deal 1:1 damage, it wouldn’t matter.
A better solution would probably be something like increaing the range of feedback to 10 or 11, but I think it’d make more sense to reduce the range on EMP, fungal, and infested Terran, which were all either directly or indirectly buffed over the years.
By 25 total, because they’re also nerfing the shields… and they’re nerfing the anti-air range by 1. With the range nerf, it’s probably a net nerf in PvZ, and doesn’t really change anything in PvT.
And they will still be awful at 5 supply and cripple the Protoss army if they make more than 5 or 6 because they’re useless once the opponent commits to attacking the Protoss army, and take up too much supply. They should reduce their supply cost by 1 again.
Did you watch the global finals group stage? Go listen to the comments by the pros and casters at the end of the group D matches regarding tempests… Everyone agreed that tempests are godawful right now. +25 hp alongside a range nerf is not going to make them a decent unit.
(On that note, Brood lords should really be 5 supply given their cost and performance; being untouchable by ground units if there are enough of them is pretty busted. Infestors should probably be 3 or 4 supply to balance their spell kit, since it’s too easy to break the game with them at 2 supply but they would need some other changes to make that reasonable; neural parasite and fungal should never have been on a 2 supply unit; they offer too much control.)
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My requested buff would be rather subtle… an upgrade that grants Sentries +25 energy when they first warp in.
While Force Fields don’t really play a role once massive units are out, what the upgrade does do is allow Guardian Shield to be cast the moment the Sentry has warped in, allowing for a more soft-counter defence against things like doom drops, Mutalisks and Battlecruiser attacks. The upgrade is mostly defensive, but it could be used for some cheeky Hallucination play maybe.
My own suggestion has the upgrade on the Cybernetics Core, costing 150m 150g and taking about 85 seconds to research, and requiring the Robotics Facility as a prerequisite (since the Sentry is robotic, and helps reduce its impact with timing attacks). Nevertheless, given the gas cost and the fact it would compete with Warp Gate and air upgrades, such a prerequisite might be unnecessary.
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It’s pretty obvious that this guy is a Terran whiner.
Except he’s also high on terrazine
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I like this.
MyOhMind I think this one is worth checking out
MyOhMind is literally saying ‘no’ to any actuall buffs people come up with in this thread. Shooting down anything that harms terran.
He doesnt want protoss to get buffed eventho its the weakest race.
He only wants to see ‘changes’ that keep protoss in the current weak state.
Remove MyOhMind from the discussion and protoss would become a race again.
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I’ve been supportive of many different Protoss buffs, but some ideas are just game breaking.
And I even have great Protoss changes in my balance mod.
Have you considered that Protoss will get this upgrade and use it for all-ins?. That’s my main concern since you know it will likely be abused in those in upper levels.
Sentries(and Oracles) getting an energy upgrade is certainly better than HT’s of old, but Sentries are a very delicate unit when it comes to balancing because of how powerful forcefield is.
I’m open to the idea, but why the robo facility instead of the robo bay?.
Also as an alternative suggestion, what if sentries could also be built out of the robo?
Couple things.
IT’s are not out ranged by Feedback. IT cast range is 8, Feedback range is 9.
Fungal has 10 cast range + 2.25 radius = 12.25 range
EMP has 10 cast range + 1.5(2.0 after upgrade) radius = 11.5(12 after upgrade) range.
So the best solution for Feedback is to increase the range to 10, since even if you nerfed Fungal and EMP range down to 9, Feedback is still out ranged because of the spell radius.
It’s so Tempest are not impacted by EMP as much and more durability is put into the HP.
In PvT, Lib range is getting nerfed. In PvZ, Broodlords range is getting fixed back to 10 and NP is getting 8 range.
Instead of reducing the supply down to 4 again, what could be done with the Tempest is increasing the attack speed to that of a sieged tank, since right now Tempest have a very low fire rate.
Tempest are a specialized unit, but they are also a long range siege unit. So do you really want massing of 4 supply Tempest again when I’m sure there is several ways to buff the Tempest to make it worth 5 supply.
Infestors should be 3 supply, I agree with that since even Vipers are 3 supply.
Broodlord supply cost is fine, but the Ultralisk should get buffed so Zerg doesn’t have to stay in the “survive til GG lords” mentality.
By that logic we can not buff anything Protoss ever because every non-token buff has a potential to be used for all ins.
Well good thing you don’t need to toss IT directly on Templar as IT has 5 GtG and 6 GtA attack range, now, isn’t it?
Too dangerous. Would be used in proxy Tempest builds.
Terran players have already learned how to counter that. Vikings have same range as Storm, so they can keep the Prism with Templars away. Interference Matrix can completely disable Prism from dropping Templars. And you can even EMP Templars in that little time between dropping and casting Storm if you’re precise enough.
And all of those approaches have been seen regularly in high-level games such as GSL.
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No, it’s because the sentry energy change has the potential to create some broken builds vs Zergs and even Protoss.
You have to consider things like that, I even like the idea and want to test it since Sentries are a cool unit.
Newly buffed Vikings shut that down.
Whatever buffs you guys propose, we need to take them crazy broken Observers down a notch or two to compensate.
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It’s why I suggested the Robotics Facility as a prerequisite for getting the energy upgrade, so it is delayed, but testing may prove it to be not a problem, given it costs 150g (gas is a precious commodity) and competes with Warp Gate, meaning you either have to wait for it to finish, delay Warp Gate research or get a 2nd Cybernetics Core, which then starts to eat into Immortal Production, for example.
I felt that the Robotics Bay is too far down the tech tree, and also rather restrictive in when you can get it.
There is an extension mod for the energy upgrade if you want to try it out - details are in the suggestion topic I linked above.
With this upgrade you could get WG first, start the sentry energy upgrade immediately after your robo and still hit a strong immortal or prism timing attack against Zerg now with even more forcefields.
There is an extension mod for the energy upgrade if you want to try it out - details are in the suggestion topic I linked above.
I’ve played it, which is why I’m saying what I’m saying.
I assume in this case that the Robo requirement doesn’t actually affect anything. If needs be, the requirement can be removed but the research time increased. What would you suggest?
Robo requirement changes nothing since Immortal-Sentry all-ins go that anyways.
Here is the question that the suggestion depends on. Would players build sentries in the mid-late game because of the energy upgrade?. Would they spend 150/150 for it?.
What I’m suggesting is that you take a look at the sentry stats itself and see what you could do with it. Maybe add a new ability or buff a stat or two?. Look over the balance patch history of the unit?
I know EMP is strong. I am conflicted! As a Terran, I use it so much that ti has just about become a crutch for me. On the other hand, I know it puts Protoss at a disadvantage lategame which forces them to all-in before it reaches that point.
I just don’t feel right letting the EMP get nerfed. I mean, once the detector ability is removed, Terran will have no way to stop the might observer. It will shred our armies! I will give up EMP only when Protoss gives up their most broken unit, the observer!
On a more serious note, EMP is a bit strong, but I think a buff to lategame P units should counteract it.
Buffs to non-zealot gateway units would since gateway units are what protects the robo and SG units.
I’m also open to buffs to the Oracle, Tempest and Mothership(It really needs to be made Frenzied already, its 400/400/8 and you can only build 1)
I’m still trying to process how after watching the WCS games, the Observer is what needs a nerf batting out of all things.
2 Protoss in Ro8?. That’s too much Protoss, time to nerf the Observer so Infestors are safe.
1 Terran in Ro8?. Time to nerf the BC since we wouldn’t want Zerg to worry about late game Terran.
Well duh, both Observers and Cattlebruisers are overpowered. Between the low cost, mapwide mobility, detection and powerful single target damage they can deal I really don’t see why you wouldn’t want to nerf both. They are essentially the same.