Who’s the weakest Co-op commander, judging by their performance against the average Brutal mutation?
- Artanis
- Raynor
- Han and Horner
I suppose “Wheel of Misfortune” would be a good benchmark. I can’t decide between these three.
I don’t think Raynor is weak at all, maybe just harder to play properly.
You’re right, he’s not a weak commander. In fact, it’s pretty amazing when watching someone who can macro well while microing marines for a speedrun. But, there’s a lot of mutators that hard counter his bio army. Hence why he tends to rank lower in many weekly mutations.
Do you mean solo or with an ally? Also, I hope you mean weakest when removing the skill the of the player from the equation, since a good Raynor player would probably beat an average Zeratul player on every mutation.
Too much randomness to determine. Brutal mutations are predefined so you can choose the best prestige to counter each set of mutator+map combos.
The closest I think we come to a ranking is CtG’s weekly mutations rankings. Unless someone knows something better, like a spreadsheet from the Chinese players? Perhaps you could produce a spreadsheet with CtG’s data with points for the ranks and summed for the commanders?
Hmm … I suppose with an ally? I haven’t tried soloing any mutations, but I’ve watched a few recordings and the list of commanders who can solo weekly mutations is usually limited.
I based my choices on CtG’s weekly mutation rankings – these three usually compete for last place.
Raynor vs. mutations can be nicely summarized in two categories: those where bio works and those where bio doesn’t work. And as mentioned, there are too many mutations where bio doesn’t work.
I think it’s a good benchmark though because the better commander should be able to survive most mutations, and those that can react quickly – such as with call downs – have an advantage.
I know it’s not exactly on topic, but I did notice an abysmal drop in quality of allies the last few days, especially those who play mengsk and raynor
trying to level kerrigan is brutal enough as it is
anyone else had similar bad experience with these two? oh and fenix too
if I see one more having 2 or 3 adepts by the 10min mark I Swear to god
Weakest has definitely gotta be Abathur. Look at his tiny spindly arms. The man/thing could barely bench press a larvae.
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Well I often see Raynors going pure BCs (even with P0) and that does not work too well usually.
pure bcs barely even works in some basic brutal solos, let alone mutations
you always start vikings banshee first if you are reasonable
btw, kerrigan sucks when the hero is dead. it’s like kerrigan is equal to 50+ fully upgraded mutas. she is also very reliant on specific prestige/mastery combo and mastery points in general. playing her underlvled or even with low mastery points is grueling
Raynor is weak in brutal unless it’s P3, Artanis P1 and P2 is also effective, and HH not so much.
p1 is very gas dependent though, it’s strong for some super annoying ground mutations but otherwise… p2 allows for great speedrunning has high skill ceiling but also runs out of energy and you need to be very skilled
p0 and p3 are imho the most reliable for artanis
raynor’s prestiges are ok, but i prefer p2 or p3. p1 has some uses for mutations though
Regular brutal, no one CO is the outright weakest, player strengths can push any of them to easily wipe a map.
Mutations, though, yeah it’s Raynor. He’s got mutators that he aces, but much more that hurt him badly. P1 and P3 did do a lot to help him there, and the weekly ones he’s not too bad these days. But the combos you can get with Brutal+ make him a weak pick for pub games.
With some mutations, battlecruisers are your only option, particularly those that favour attrition and AoE damage. They’re arguably more useful in mutations than in normal brutal.
I sometimes insta-quit when I am matched with sub-mastery Raynor, Kerrigan, or Artanis. More often than not, they’re really bad – the players, not the commanders themselves.
Unless you are talking about mutations that’s a terrible attitude. Sure if i land on some freaky mutation with a lv1 kerrigan i am also tapping out but regular brutal is literally piece of cake with any commander
Also to specify, I am aware that many mutations punish low hp units but bcs are so expensive that it seems hard to open with them from the get go
Kerrigan is good in mutations where Nydas Spam yields major advantage.
One problem with Raynor is Swann, imo. The thing is, if you want to use Tanks to blow up ground, use Swann. If you want to use air to blow up air, use Swann. Add to that, healing is free with Swann. So all Raynor really got is bio that can deploy really cooly…and heal…for energy.
Bcs can withstand things that wraiths can’t and can instaburst and then tp out
There are absolutely things that Swann does better, but Raynor thrashes Swann in other areas.
- Speed. Raynor generally clears much faster when played well. Check solo speedruns for examples of this.
- P3 - You can actually buld up an army at home and use just the topbars to complete some mutations.
- Macro over micro - With non-P1 it’s possible to have such a strong eco that you can overwhelm the enemy with mass bio even when their units counter bio. I’m not saying this is the optimal play, just he can be played almost pure macro on regular Brutal.
- Spider mines - This allows Raynor to handle propagators, spawn camp waves on many maps, and deal with HoTS.
- Scans - Better against some mutators than turrets/SV.
- Hyperion - Can go anywhere on the map to clear nasty targets before your bioball moves in. Swann does this with factories/hercs + drill but is slower.
Check LilArin’s runs for how powerful Raynor can be.
Raynor’s air-to-air is usually better. 
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I think the whole argument so far is that for end game (mutations) Raynor has niche uses only, regardless of what he can do in game exploits. You can say Swann can just drill only in cases too, right?
But Swann mass Wraiths, even pre buff, can withstand AoE attacks very well, if that’s what you guys are referring to. You can use a simple micro called “magic boxing” (keeps formation spread) and mitigate most of the AoE threats in the game. Much easier than Marine stepping and surround split with firebats in lead etc. The pulse attack thing update made the Wraiths super OP imo.
Everytime I get a Raynor partner for a decent mutation, I expect it to be rough. The last time it was really memorable, it was the Killbot one and he was really good at feeding the Killbots. WP