Tychus Feedback

Co-op Missions Discussion
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I thought a separate thread to discuss Tychus is warranted, as he’s potentially next in line to be reworked!

Tychus feels fun to play and I suspect a lot of his strength comes from only needing to manage a small army, allowing players to make better decisions in combat. That said Tychus in early game can quickly die if caught offguard. Lategame I would say Tychus doesn’t grow to the power level other commanders do, but that’s compensated by good early and strong midgame.

Unit compositions to me feel a bit pigeon holed once you get to higher level of play and difficulty.

Fairly standard are

  • Sirius (turrets tank & dps, usually resulting in medivac supplying enough healing),
  • Cannonball (tank with revive and good dps and stun again gaining time to dps as not to need as much heal),
  • Nux (tychus nade + nux storm basically kills all mid hp units, + he’s a detector) and
  • Rattlesnake (because he supplies enough heal but then also dmg).

Basically you get time gainers and damage dealers, so Medivac is enough.

Other units simply don’t add enough value in the majority of the current map and enemy environment.

  • Nikara: If you take her, you lack damage. Her heal is not the biggest benefit, as she often only heals the damage that you wouldn’t even take if you’d taken Sirius. Additionally she must be micro’d like no other unit due to no auto-attack and can’t heal herself. What she needs to supply is damage somehow, maybe like Mercy from Overwatch and be aligned to other units which means she shouldn’t require separate micro when there’s nothing to heal (she doesn’t heal => useless and then she also becomes a burden => punishment on top)

  • Blaze: He is simply outshined by Cannonball in most situations. His strength point against masses of small units doesn’t seem powerful enough.

  • Vega: He is situationally powerful when you can dominate useful enough units. I suspect he’s actually fine, because he’s niche, but potentially opens up much higher skilled gameplay and benefit (ie taking a Viper)

  • Sam: I think his strength is very rarely useful. Basically most units simply die too quickly. And when a lategame army of 5 Battle Cruisers comes knocking on your door then getting rid of 2 slowly won’t make the difference. Big Hybrids usually die easily enough, reducing his usefulness to Trains and certain Mutations. If his activation time was better and the explosion did some AoE as well he could become much more interesting.
    Update: I played Sam more and hearing what others think I agree he doesn’t really need buffs. It’s just unsatisfying for his Charge to be wasted a lot when units die too early and you don’t get the big bang ;(

I think by bringing up the weaker units Tychus gameplay can be made more diverse, without turning him overpowered.

Other:

  • The DPS and Armor upgrades rarely reach lvl 5, unless in long maps. You also don’t usually push them, because you need the gas for medivacs and more impactful upgrades. (Maybe that’s on purpose tho)

Please do add feedback and discuss what I mentioned, as I said I feel Tychus does need some rework outside his standard build and potentially he would be next in line.

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IMO, while Tychus is indeed one of the stronger commanders overall, I don’t think he’s actually especially overpowered - if I was gonna nerf anything I think it’s the ridiculous mobility of mastery’d Medivacs by replacing the mastery with something more interesting. Weakening that mobility would better stress his massive weakness in defense and make him take more hard choices.

Unit wise, yeah he’s strong, no one will deny that, but compared to MANY other armies I don’t really see it as being overly powerful. I can build, upgrade, and amove Kerrigan mutalisks to clear bases faster than Tychus, all while Kerrigan solos the entire earlygame and most of the mid regardless of how bad I macro. Raynor’s marines are… well, hard to beat them lol, and his BCs are a seriously underrated build (albeit usually needing some marines earlygame to contribute) with great mobility and faster clearing/alpha strike on priority targets as well. Dehaka can do… basically anything, honestly, and do as well or better. Zagara can clear maps faster. Vorazun is still Vorazun and Timestop alone is obscene. And none of them are as at risk as Tychus to just getting mass Reavered to death and your entire army being gone for a while as you very slowly rebuild it, while Raynor has remaxed within a minute.

So. With all that said!

I agree that touching on Tychus’s weaker units is a better idea than nerfing the bejeebus out of the good ones. I am leery of major buffs that replace or enhance existing mainstays, and think that establishing better identities, respecting that coop’s ‘meta’ is primarily revolved around damage and threat mitigation, is a good direction. So…

Nikara just needs a better identity as a support imo, to exist in the same world as Rattlesnake. I’d like to see her get some kind of blinding or stunning or EMPing move that could interrupt BCs/green hybrid and/or temporarily crowd control waves to emphasize that she not only heals damage, she prevents it. Adding on something like the Havoc target lock would round her off with some damage amp and fix the amove into death problem simultaneously while also helping with single target DPS to a degree. As an alternative, she could offer some kind of damage buff to allies, but then she starts feeling a LOT like Rattlesnake with less damage unless her buff is way better and then she starts feeling like Better Rattlesnake and we just invert the problem.

Blaze’s problem is twofold - his terrible attack point/slow animation and atrocious melee range. Pop him up to 3-4 range (no more, no less), give him a better attack point so he can actually shoot, and I think that alone would take him up to a decent position as a solid niche. Adding a bit more CC to his oil spill/flame combo (again, like Nikara, something to counter Yamato esque spells would be a strong option - maybe a silence for flaming enemies?) could give him a much more versatile role as a mixture of damage and CC vs Nikara’s healing and CC.

Vega is, in my opinion, fine. She rewards certain very aggressive earlygame strats playing Pokemon across the map, and is Tychus’s only real counter to multi-Battlecruiser Yamato spam currently (Sam doesn’t have enough charges for them+green hybrids). Yeah she’s not as obviously devastatingly strong as Tychus, Sam, and Sirius, but all of the specialists are exactly that - specialists - less of an autoslot and more something you pick based on playstyle. And giving Blaze some better use against swarms would by default free up Vega to exist better in a Nux focused world; if you already have Blaze covering AOE, Vega can be the yin to his yang and cover larger units.

Respectfully I do /mostly/ disagree on Sam. I think he’s one of Tychus’s better units honestly, with the double attack and fast attack speed he has phenomenal DPS, can shoot up, is currently the ONLY real answer Tychus has to green hybrids with his stun, and is one of the few things Tychus really has other than Tychus himself to deal meaningful singletarget DPS aside from an ideal-world situation where nothing ever targets Sirius’s turrets. I do agree that his charges take way too long to go off, but currently his stun starts when the charge goes on and lasts until it goes off, so to avoid crippling his utility I would change it so it’s a guaranteed 5 second stun, but maybe the charge itself goes off in ~2 seconds, so you can still CC hybrids decently but also do good burst to them.

I don’t see any issues with the DPS/armor upgrades not always being finished personally. I usually finish weapon upgrades except on the shorter maps since I prioritize them, and at the risk of conflicting with what I said earlier - while I don’t think he’s ACTUALLY overpowered, he’s close enough that I’m very leery of giving him easier access of level 5 weapon/armor upgrades. I think it’s fine as is with him getting 3-4 of them and occasionally 5.

With all that said! I commend you on your thoughts in this topic. We may not necessarily agree on every single aspect but I respect the level headed and (in my opinion) objective viewpoint, neither whinging about him nor downplaying his strengths!

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I’d like to see Nikara and Blaze receive some help.

Nikara needs some way to contribute offensively. One possibility is to give her an upgrade that allows Restorative burst to reset the cds of Outlaws healed by it (+1 charge for charges) except of course for Nikara’s herself. This allows her to be a fantastic support to your spellcasting while Rattlesnake contributes damage and attack speed for your standard attacks. The above suggestions by Cryswar would also work well by giving her CC potential.

I don’t have much to dislike about Sam or Vega. I think both play just fine as it is. Sam’s cloak shield thing could be better (I rarely even notice it, let it activate on the first hit?) so I prioritize other upgrades. Vega’s elite could be better; longer duration on Dominate is okay but most often I’m not worried about keeping the units alive and prefer it as a quick way to distract enemy waves. Also, perhaps allow Dominate to deal x damage (300-500ish?) to units it cannot Mind control? Not necessary though and it may step on Sam’s toes.

Blaze needs the most help. Does Oil spill hit flying enemies? I want to say it doesn’t. If not that would be a big plus. His elite could use some help as well - self heal for each ignited enemy? His main downside is his attack so Cryswar’s suggestions make a lot of sense here.

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Handles pamphlet to Blaze and Nikara
Me: Please check yourselves into the revamp upgrade centre.

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On ye olde phorums someone posted an Imgur link to Blaze with various fire-shooting animations, and it seems clear Blizzard could fix this range issue easily.

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I agree that a few outlaws require some work but I think Vega and Sam are perfectly fine the way they are, they are not as much of a staple as say Sirius but they are still very good in the right situation.

The main problem I have with Tychus is his mobility, it makes the game so easy and kinda frustrating for your ally to keep up with you because you can be anywhere anytime… that combined with an OP nuke that can clear a whole base in a second and can be call down anywhere.

So yeah nerf his mobility to keep it more in line with other commanders and the nuke well… instead of nerfing the nuke I’d ask to make Nova and Swann’s nukes the same as Tychus just to be fair and try to avoid too much nerfing (although I personally wouldn’t be mad if they nerfed his nuke to Nova/Swann level).

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Tychus is in a good place right now. Other Commanders deserve a little care as well. Besides he’s if not a “new” commander. 50% of my ally match ups are all with Tychus players. A beyond noticeable amount. I doubt people would play him so actively if his kit needed work. Sure you can change a few things here and there, not to glare too hard at Nikara, but at what point does Karax or some of the older commanders get some attention and love their way. God knows they need a little more than just some tweaking.

After the whole questionable fiasco with Stukov, I doubt any change that Tychus does get, will be in the direction the public wants. I feel betrayed as do most Stukov mains understandably.

My only problem with Tychus is simply Blaze. It makes no sense to me what his model and kit can do in HotS but NONE of that is used here. To top it off his flame throwers, for the bulky unit that he is, go literally nowhere. As if lighting a match stick vs a swarm of brutal waves. I’dve liked to see him taken a little more serious during the development phase.

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Borsalino, every commander other than Tychus and Zeratul has had a revamp since last year. So to “at what point does Karax … get some attention and love”, the answer is February 8 last year:

Tychus and Zeratul do both deserve a turn. Tychus doesn’t need much changing, of course. But it’s simply not true that a commander being played a lot means that no part of his kit could do with some work. You said it yourself: Blaze is foremost on the list. Nikara changes are possible, though most of what’s asked for there is perhaps outside the remit of a revamp. If anything is to be nerfed, it’s likely to be Medivac platforms.

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And how many of those changes were per the communities requests and posts at the time? Close to none. If you’re suggesting that any change is viable, then it’s just a matter of time till “some kind of change” comes to Tychus, rendering this post meaningless. Per say.

Doesn’t change the fact that Tychus is one of the stronger commanders atm, overall, as Cryswar put it. And because of that strength, people play him in large numbers. Like they did Stukov before his bunker flip. For people who play daily it is a noticeable dip.

But don’t get me wrong. I am all for changes for Blaze, I can deal with Nikara. My general statements are just that, general.

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I love Layna Nikara and I hope they do not nerf her. Buff would be luffed, though.

I know she’s not the best for min/maxing, but if you want to help your partner, she’s the gal that’ll do the helping. Just today, my partner’s Zagara got hit hard in a joint fight, and was below half life… for about 3 seconds. Then, in another game, my partner’s Nova was just a tiny bit above dying. Again, Layna Nikara fixed her right up. A third dude seemed to be weirded out that I could heal his Gary (he wasn’t at lvl 15 yet.)

Layna Nikara might not dish out damage, but it’s a cooperative game, and your partner’s hero units could benefit from Lt. Nikara’s healing as much – if not more – than your own Tychus units. Rattlesnake has to drop a revitalizer to do this, he can’t just be standing in the area for about 4 seconds.

Just my opinion, of course.

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Well said. A lot of these post (not this section specifically) would thin out if they take into consideration that this is a co-op mode and cooperation doesn’t mean watching your own buttocks, or speed running through the whole map in a few minutes. It’s non competitive and should be treated as such. So, pity for all those Tychus mains who choose to play another Commander, then rage and leave game if they see a Tychus user pick Nikara.

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I think you both raise good points honestly. It’s absolutely true that there ARE commanders in much greater need of love than Tychus, but it’s also true that they seem to be focused on going in a linear order (so far).

…I definitely agree that Blizzard’s recent track record has me real concerned about their idea of ‘improving’ Tychus though lol.

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Well perhaps we’re talking at cross purposes. I was responding to the idea that g older commanders weren’t getting attention full stop, not the idea that they weren’t getting the changes you/a sub-community wanted. Personally I have faith some commanders will be revisited, but it’s logical to finish the planned revamps.

“Per the community’s requests” is an interesting one. The most common community request for Karax, that his army be less expensive, was absolutely met as the main change in his revamp. Reduced upgrade cost was also a key community request I remember. But also, I wouldn’t agree if you were suggesting that revamps should simply do what our subset of ‘the community’ is asking for. Good game design is much more than that. And not every commander has to have Tychus’s easily accessible strength. That said, sure, I’d probably buff Karax a bit more.

Incidentally, commander strength is such a complex metric… would you be surprised to hear I put Tychus at the exact midpoint in my rankings? 9th out of 17. Granted, Karax is in my bottom three, unsurprisingly!

Yeah, Nikara is underrated in some ways, but am I right in remembering she can’t heal herself anymore? She seems to have a beginner niche and a mutation niche, and if she’s been hit by that self-heal nerf then she’s got worse at both.

She does have problems that go deeper than that… people aren’t wrong to suggest it wasn’t great design to give one healer an auto-attack and DPS buff, and the other healer… just healing. Sadly fixing that might be outside the scale of changes they like to make for the revamps, but hopefully they can find some compromise.

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That is to be expected, but not because they ignore the feedback necessarily. It’s just that feedback consists of “I have this problem with this unit etc” which is useful, but then 90% of suggestions of how to fix things are simply useless. The Dev Team sits down and discusses different possibilities of changes, so they put more heads and thoughts into solutions than us usually, so they often solve problems in unexpected ways, and btw some problems aren’t real problems that players have, so they go mostly unchanged.

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And yet after the last developer took head of the co-op dep we’ve had 3 low APM commanders and nerfs flying every-which way. I don’t think I’m alone in this when I say that I am simply fearful for the future changes to any Commander. It’s one way to look at it from a business stand point why they do what they do and how, it’s another through the players experience, and trying to speak out of their behalf to get the changes you know they deserve. We are the voice of reason, without us Dev Teams will just do whatever they like, however we know that isn’t the case. You’re taking my statement pretty solid for all commanders, where as I was just discussing Karax. The changes for Kerrigan I agreed with, Dehaka, etc. I just feel that something needs to be said, that’s all.

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This, exactly. I’ve read a lot of comments from game devs talking about how they need to separate what people want from what the think they want.

People are weird that way, look at testimonies about random map/commander selection. True randomness, which is what we have, is often viewed as favouring something. You could easily get the same commander x times in a row. A way to make it seem more random is actually to skew the results by removing previously chosen commanders or weigh the unchosen ones more heavily.

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That is an opinion you are having, in a discussion that needs to be had. Which is what we are all doing here. Oh and don’t try to take that negatively, cause it wasn’t implied, nor is.

Lets return to focusing on Tychus Feedback as opposed to General Commander Feedback, cause that can go on for ages.

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I’m starting to think I use Sam wrong, after reading what you guys said here

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I usually heal her with her restorative burst, or a Medivac if the situation is critical. The restorative burst also affects a good deal of my ally’s forces, which helps if in a situation where our units can suffer serious damage.

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Look. That was simply an example, something people would have seen and would be able to understand. It is on topic, as it was talking about how people’s requests for changes to something may not be actioned on.

This is not the first time you’ve snapped like this at me, I wasn’t even talking to you this time. Don’t bother responding, friend, because I won’t bother reading it. Have a nice day.

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