Toss hits 43% in GM

General Discussion
41

He zealot allins a lot and masses phoenix. There are no creative protoss streamers that I am aware of. PartinG was amazing. He was very creative and entertaining. I wish sOs streamed. He’s actually very high on the KR ladder right now. It’s a wonder why he isn’t competing. There are too many people spamming the same builds on repeat – the builds they copied from maxpax or whatever. I find it very boring to play that way. Those builds have been mapped out for years, it’s just a matter of adapting timings a bit depending on the map. You know, that sort of thing.

Ty was beating protoss using battlecruiser reaper. That was super interesting. That kind of creativity is totally absent inside the protoss streamer pool as far as I know.

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42

MC is back playing SC1. I thought this was good. With Artosis casting. I liked the way he harassed with Zealots, among other things :stuck_out_tongue:

43

Ezreal at least has to be in somewhat close range and has to hit each skill-shot which does take some skill at least, while weaving in autos between each skill-shot. Both Ez and Caitlin have to kite too, which involves spacing, taking a skill of its own.

Both take more skill to play than Xerath and Ziggs though, by quite a significant margin, especially considering how hard AP items got buffed.

44

Toss need a building cost increase to be truly fair. Zerg get cheaper hatches, why do Terran and Toss Nexuses/CCs cost the same? Protoss saves so many minerals when building. If the balance council is listening, they should add a 50 mineral cost to most buildings. Not upfront, but trickle it down as the structure is being built.

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45

Yeah, that’s true. I guess I brought up Caitlyn because she’s such a lane bully.

46

Highlighted in red is the one secret to beating toss:

https://i.imgur.com/owf3FNE.png

It yields a whopping 48% win-rate vs protoss:

https://i.imgur.com/DjVBivc.png

48% might sound bad, but let’s compare it to other zergs like PiG:

https://i.imgur.com/WgiHMpA.png

Oof. 45%. You can’t spam drones vs a race that has every advantage conceivable in a macro game. They are ahead in tech, upgrades and economy. They have the range advantage, supply efficiency advantage, resource efficiency advantage, static defense efficiency advantage, peak army strength advantage, mobility advantage, vision advantage. What other advantage is there? You’re just praying he has narcolepsy and falls asleep at the keyboard. If he’s maxed, he might have a successful defense even if he falls asleep.

The only time protoss has a true vulnerability is at the 1 base allin mark. They have 1 probe scout that has to figure out if it’s proxy hatch, gold base, hidden base, 3 hatch, and it’s just impossible for him to know unless he gets lucky with the scout. Even if it’s a gold base, and he scouts it, it could still be a drone pull ling flood. That’s the only legitimate strategical weakness that protoss has right now. Don’t let the game go past the 5 minute mark. If it does, just gg and move on lmao.

Queen walks, gold bases, 1 base baneling busts – it all looks the same. You do 14 gas 14 pool 14 hatch 13 overlord. Put the hatch at the gold or as a proxy. This looks identical to a bane bust, proxy hatch, and 14/14 into gold, 14/14 into drone pull, etc. Too many variants for toss, and that’s just one branch of the proxy hatch possibilities. Rogue won so many tournaments by bypassing the late game vs protoss and he did it with proxy hatch. It’s the only way to beat apetoss reliably.

On some maps, there are FOUR gold base possibilities. There’s no way he’s going to reliably scout what’s going on. It just won’t happen. The gold bases are so good for this style because in the event he over-reacts he falls behind big time. But if he under reacts you can allin him. It’s wonderful.

LMAO: https://i.imgur.com/tpvpg5C.png

He didn’t realize it was HIS gold that I took. There are 2 gold bases but 4 gold locations. Proxy hatch is really something.

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47

ESL Master 2024: Asia

https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/ESL_Pro_Tour/2023/24/Masters/Spring/Regionals/AS

Playoffs: 6 P/ 2 T / 0 Z
and Coffee as T takes P against Oliveira.

ZvP is very forced in the early to mid game.
From Z perspective I have the feeling I have more options in ZvT than in ZvP. ( with 2Base lair stuff)

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48

With the power of hindsight we can clearly see that the widow mine nerfs have had more impact in TvZ than TvP. Kappa keppo :stuck_out_tongue: :stuck_out_tongue: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :crazy_face: :clown_face: :clown_face: :clown_face: :clown_face:

49

Though I’d love to see the data you’re using to make this statement, would be entirely unsurprised if this was true.

Zerg have been playing against the normal widow mine for a long time now and have actively developed strategies to deal with it, much like Terrans have developed strategies to deal with Banes.

Thus, when their usual strategies for dealing with them are buffed by way of the mine itself being nerfed 4 times in the same patch, it’s only logical that Zergs are typically going to have a field day against mine-oriented players.

Having said that, I haven’t looked at the before and after for this patch to know if the TvZ has been hit that hard.

From what I’ve seen, Terrans have definitely had less success in both TvP and TvZ in pro level with the mine nerfs though.

50

Only because they simultaneously nerfed liberators which were the alternative to wms for stopping runbys. Pro players also struggle with adaptation. Maxpax had to be told which maps were good for protoss for example. It will take time for the 80iq apm spammers to adapt.

Back when sc2 was a strategy game, the people who played it at the pro level were actually very smart. Idra suggested buffing the overlord speed, was absolutely harangued by hate from 80iq internet randos, and moves on with his life to become a material scientist. They ended up buffing overlords several times, and much more than Idra ever proposed. The game is designed by idiots who view it as a multitasking/apm game. It’s just reality. New maps and tge pro scene has a collective melt down about rocks. Lmao. Unreal. I am going to have to find a different game because spamming the same vanilla builds on repeat is just boring A F. But that’s the way you have to play sc2. You either spam roaches like an ape or lose 1000 mmr.

It always cracks me up how people will manner mule you after narrowly beating a meme build. Game design bowed down from heaven to give them the easiest possible win, they struggled to get it, and are actually proud of the win afterwards lmao. I am surrounded by apes. :gorilla:

That’s why I love the widow mine nerf etc. It really shows the quality of the players in the pro scene. I said years ago on reddit that sc2 is nothing but apm spam and lost 1,500 karma. I am totally rught but nobodyis smart enough to realize it. They will, eventually, but by then the game will be dead. Rip. You could say I sympathize with Idra. I was smarter than he was because I didn’t waste any time trying to be pro. How much time did he lose to a meme career? :thinking: no way you will be treated fairly when the people running the show don’t know what direction is up. You have to be good at spotting people who are like you and you have to team up with them. You work together to make the dough. That’s where success comes from. It’s in the recipe. Sc2 is a recipe for disaster. Ingredients include apm spammers who have to be told which maps are good for protoss. Yikes. If sc2 were a strategy game, this guy would be bronze league. Harsh but true. I value truth and accuracy above all else. I wish I could laud praises all day. I really do. But it would be a lie.

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51

Meh at the amateur level you don’t care much about the liberator nerfs in TvP. The balance council gave their reasoning to stop liberator harass behind mineral lines but that’s only a small window for us plebs before the Protoss fields air units. Comparatively I tuned into a showtime stream on the new maps and Clem played the usual lib harass at the outer bases which shut down all of his mining. Showtime expected that he couldn’t reach them so he left them alone causing him to lose the game. Only in the post game reflection did he realize that cannons can reach in a specific spot. So the apm taxing ability of libs has been nerfed and especially at the pro level.

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52

Adventurer and Idra meet at an unknown date in the future: https://i.imgur.com/8JIQIuE.png

My experience playing protoss is that liberators delete robo openers. They are the reason you can’t open robo on 2 base without it being a dedicated allin.

That’s because everyone opens stargate or blink. TvP orbits the medivac. It’s true. The medivac decides how 99% of TvP is played. You open stargate or blink or you die to starport units.

It depends on the map obviously. The libs have to be able to travel there safely & there have to be good spots they can target. Blink stalkers in combo with revelation make that very hard. Phoenix hard counters it obviously.

Sounds like he was out on the map & not in position. Gotta be searching for the liberators as they cross, but that takes the ability to use more than 1 hotkey. Toss sure do love their f2.

One of the great mysteries of life is why protoss don’t constantly cast revelation on top of the starport & change their defensive posturing based on what they see. A liberator rallied away from the terrans army is highly sus. Better put 4 stalkers at the fourth. Imagine the possibilities if a chess GM decided he could tolerate the APM spam of SC2. Lmao. Pick protoss and never lose another game again.

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53

The issue with robo openings is that you sacrifice any option to play aggressive or have control over the map. The terran then play super greedy and there’s nothing that the Protoss can do.

It’s the combination of a tank push and those starport units. Robo has no way to jump in on a sieged position or to remove them from play like phoenix do. You also have less units than normal pumping out an immortal into colossus. If only people realized that the tank hinders Protoss openings more than widow mines.

54

You put 2 immortals in a prism and snipe addons. You put 4 stalkers in a prism and go for worker harass. Warp in zealots if you see a big vulnerability. Robo plays are hyper aggressive. They are simply hard countered by liberators. Robo is an anti-ground tech primarily. Liberators hard counter ground-to-ground units. There is nothing you can make off a robo that liberators don’t counter. That’s why those builds have to hit limited timing windows. If the lib count gets too high you’re toast. That’s where the prism goes for addons in the main & warps in a round of zealots.

No, tanks are hard countered by robo. Immortals and colossus beat it to an extreme. That problem is that immortals and colossus have zero utility vs starport units. You simply make vikings if it’s colossus and liberators if it’s disruptors or immortals.

Even if the terran guesses wrong it’s not the end of the world. The vikings can use landing micro to dodge disruptors and the vikings remove the immortal’'s ability to blink micro via the warp prism. They also shut down reinforcements.

Toss struggles mainly vs starport, everything else terran makes is literal trash.

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55

You’re talking about a way later stage of the game and even still it is standard to go to a crazy high amount of robos to meet terrans production of MMM. In the midgame immortals and colossus are sitting ducks against heavily committed tank pushes, there’s no way to engage without losing all your army. We’re not playing hots anymore. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

https://youtu.be/eutpjCmfjzw?t=331

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56

I am talking about what happens if you open robo & don’t end the game so it’s a later stage by definition. You have to make 2 immortals and hit a gateway timing. It’s allin. If you don’t, you lose to liberators. You can go robo later if you open blink or stargate first. I am talking about robo first.

That’s a twilight first opener and complicated by a cyclone timing. He takes loads of damage from a bad opener & scouting. He then can’t hold the bio tank timing because he’s behind.

Robo first laughs at the cyclones. 2 immortals fly into the main and zealots warp in as the marine tank moves out. He loses all his addons and has to pull back. Meanwhile charge finishes off the twilight and he a-clicks through the marine tank army. This isn’t rocket science, it’s protoss.

Robo allins hard counter these kinds of builds. You just can’t go robo first because the possibility of liberators or banshees is too big of a threat. The real issue is the starport.

If you are trying to counter medivac harass, banshee harass or liberator harass, but you only have an obs and no-blink stalkers, you are going to be hating life.

Another thing worth noting is that instead of doing the blink attack he could’ve made 2 immortals. He killed, what, a bunker. He could’ve killed the bunker and the tank had he simply had 2 immortals instead of 6 blink stalkers.

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57

A fantastic observation indeed. Even protoss will tire of being advantaged because every tournament will be PvP until the heat death of the universe. They thought they’d win tournaments by buffing protoss, but what they are doing is handing all the tournament victories to the best PvP player. Too bad their plan to cheat backfired. Who could’ve seen this coming.

The meme that is sc2 balance is so absurd that even the most partisan protoss can’t deny it anymore. I have four year old clips of top GM protoss raging at me because I pointed out toss was 45% of gm. “BuT ThEy DonT WiN PreMieRs” he said. The other day I saw the same guy in a twitch chat saying that protoss have no champion tier players. Aka he totally reversed his position.

So many people in the sc2 community spewed absolute vitriol at me for years for the great crime of having eyes. Yes I have eyes and I can read this chart here which proves protoss is advantaged. Why don’t they win premiers? Well, top protoss suck more than balance favors them. Yep, that’s the correct conclusion. It adheres to all the facts, and it’s the only theory that does. No, I am not a troll, or an avilo-esque whiner, I simply have eyes. Time rolls forward and they forget how they treated you, but I remember. I will always remember.

They don’t realize how much money they miss out on. They burned bridges before they could even see that there was a bridge there to begin with. I certainly won’t be passing opportunities their way. They are invisible as far as I am concerned. Spewing acid in all directions turns out to be a great way to box yourself in.

At first I thought they just didn’t know what they were doing. In recent years I have learned better. I thought that people were generally pretty decent and moral people. Then I streamed and saw they cheat every chance they get via stream sniping. Hmm. How about that. I never realized people would compromise their morality over something as trivial as a video game. My city has a cleanup event every year where you can bring as many loads of trash to the dump as you want for free. My record is 26. I have a 3/4 ton pickup truck. It was such a popular event that on the last day every dumpster would be overflowing. Well this year they required photo ID because people from neighboring cities were dropping things off. Its my city that pays for the event. There were probably 1/3rd as many trucks this time around. Legit 2/3rds of the people were cheaters. This is from a highly christian area. Unreal. People cheat, cheat and cheat some more.

So when professional toss lobby the balance counsel to buff protoss to the moon and delete zerg and terran from tournaments, they know exactly what they are doing. They’re cheaters. Don’t buy into it when they play dumb. They knew exactly what they were doing.

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58

Ive seen Reynor lose to a 5.8k Protoss earlier, massing Air and HT
Protoss cry babies will whine no matter what

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Yeah I saw SortOf lose to a 6200 protoss who didn’t use hotkeys. If you can’t bother to hotkey your army, it’s the definition of minimal effort. 6200 mmr is way too high for minimal effort. 3000 mmr is more fitting.

That is why the IMbalance counsel won’t nerf toss. They know 2/3rds of the protoss in GM will drop to diamond league if the game was balanced to require equal skill and equal effort.

60

Seems like a occam’s razor reason to why people don’t open robo though, just like Protoss only opens stargate in PvZ because mutas exist. The other options are just better and transition to robo when you actually want to produce those expensive units.

I don’t see why robo openers are predestined to all-in, the Protoss player that comes to mind with robo openers is Astrea and he does that with greedy play.