The patch does nothing to address mech in zvt

General Discussion
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Watching avilo’s stream today and its clear, by a big margin, mech is broken against zerg. Zerg has no answer to it.

Whoever wants to play zerg still knowing they could go up against that cancer style fairly often is beyond me.

Neosteal Frame needs to go…it makes turtling way too broken. Or make it so PFs doesnt get the bonus from it.

Libs make turtling even more broken.

Why PFs is still in the game is beyond me anyway. Terran turtle was already strong enough in BW and yet they make it even stronger in SC2 with PFs.

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Oh hey, it’s the guy that said he uninstalled but is acting like a toxic ex who can’t let go. You do realize Avilo is the worst example in the world right? He’s literally been playing the most patient mech style for 10+ years. You can’t use the most extreme example possible as the general rule. That’s terrible logic, you know like all your other posts.

“Zerg has no answer to it.” This is a blatant lie, since if that’s the case then Zerg wouldn’t have had so many first place finishes in 2022 premier tournament wins. All you mean is that you’re too incompetent to figure out how to crush mech Terran. Go away already, and let the adults talk.

3 Likes
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Stargazers and mech is a Zerg players nightmare.

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you clearly never watched avilo’s stream.

And most pros dont go mech vs zerg, they are too used to bio.

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https://youtu.be/K8QzyjLKc_A?t=1846

People who actually play verse “PrOs dOn"t PlaY meCh”

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Candy, are we talking about the same Avilo who isn’t even GM right now?

Also, speaking of pros that “don’t go mech vs zerg” in addition to what thrasher posted:
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKaV_ffcwsw
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHpQxTO0f8A

You’re a clown show and it’s time you got off the stage for someone who is at least amusing. We’re just pitying you at this point.

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avilo masses ravens and libs and ghosts with mech. pros dont do that.

zerg has no answer to it.

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#1. Please explain why Avilo is not even GM if “Zerg has no answer to it.” No one cares about your silly little theory if they aren’t even a top contender with it.
#2. Ever thought the reason pros don’t do it is because it’s not the most effective strategy?

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Why mass Ravens? They would barely do anything to help that composition. Any more than a couple for detection is a waste of gas.

As for Zerg’s options to deal with that:

  • Vipers are fairly effective for Parasitic Bomb, blinding Thors/Tanks, and abducting Liberators or individual Thors.
  • Microbial Shroud will more than double the amount of hits that Liberators take to kill anything about 1 supply, so it is a valid option if the opposing composition is “Raven/Liberator/Ghost” as you suggested or otherwise heavily dependent on Liberators for damage.
  • Liberators also aren’t quite as good as Siege tanks at denying Infestors because of their limited targeting area, so you could also look for opportunities to Fungal/Neural enemy units.
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Ravens for auot-turret spam and to reduce the zerg armor.

Zerg tries to enage? Spam auto-turrets, reduce the armor, use ghosts for vipers and zerg cant engage into a tank/lib/raven/ghost/thor comp at all

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Main problem is viper nerf would get viper killed just to get pull. So in the end it’s trade that Zerg can’t afford.

Problem about micro cloud Terran can walk away and try force step Zerg out micro.

Force to invest more investors which is in Terrans favor.

Or multiple liberators would make microbe useless.

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AAM doesn’t matter much for most mech units, especially when you compare it to what Zerg can do with Vipers or Infestors. Tanks, Thors, Liberators (against ground), and Hellbats all hit for significantly large bursts, such that the bonus damage from AAM is usually far less than the damage from AOE spells such as Storm, PB, or Fungal.
Battlecruisers and Liberators against air are the two most heavily affected mech units, but Zerg can definitely still deal with them using Corruptors (or other anti-air) in conjunction with Infestors or Vipers.

Against the specific composition you mentioned, the Terran player’s army is usually slow and vulnerable to harassment, particularly when you get above a few bases. Brood Lords can still interrupt Ghosts or force friendly-fire from Siege Tanks (making their use a liability), and Blinding Clouds, Parasitic Bombs, or Neurals can easily swing a fight in Zerg’s favor even if you lose the casters in the process.

As for Auto-Turrets: Auto-Turret spam is a problem from a design perspective if nothing else. I am all in favor with its removal.

Abduct is definitely worth risking a Viper as long as you grab a good target.
Blinding Cloud (on Tanks/Thors) is also worth sacking a Viper based on how much damage it can prevent
Parasitic Bomb can also deal enough damage or force Vikings out of the air for long enough to pay off.

We are talking about Terran mech/sky here. Tanks (because of transformation time) and Thors are some of the slowest units in the game, and Liberators take almost as much time to setup as Siege Tanks. If Terran is forced to move their Liberators or their ground units because of Microbial Shroud, that fight is likely in your favor.

In contrast, Zerg ground units (with some exceptions) are some of the fastest in the game. Most Zerg ground units can take advantage of unsieged Liberators or Tanks trying to relocate.

Microbial Shroud can double the number of Liberator shots needed to kill units with more than 43 health, so unless your ground army is comprised of Zerglings and Banelngs (where the Liberator shots are usually wasteful anyway), then it will significantly improve you ground units’ performance when engaging the enemy.

Liberators target a 5-radius zone, about the same area as a Widow Mine. If your units can survive the trip through that circle, then they can effectively render the old Liberator zone useless and force a resiege.

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Match starts at 3:16:02

I can also find more examples including one where a zerg tried swarmhosts to break the invincible and unfair power of turtle terran, but even that failed.

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I made it as far as “Watching avilo’s stream today”. Time to read a different post.

3 Likes
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Candy, you assured us that Zerg had no answer for his playstyle. But all you’re doing is cherry-picking the games he has played. Also, you’re a literal coward for dodging my questions that ruin your narrative.

#1. Please explain why Avilo is not even GM if “Zerg has no answer to it.” No one cares about your silly little theory if they aren’t even a top contender with it.

#2. Ever thought the reason pros don’t do it is because it’s not the most effective strategy?

#3. Avilo’s lost a game here in TvZ despite “Zerg has no answer to it.”
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sTJtWJQGfs. Starts at 2:41:08

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17

I could beat him with slow lings and slow banes. The skill level to be GM dropped drastically after LotV started. It used to be that it wouldn’t promote you until 5500 and it would kick you out at 5300. He and Playa are in the same boat in my estimation. They both do extremely easy turtle styles that are designed to avoid multitasking and micro at all costs. These styles grind out a win through sheer patience and nothing else. It’s literally waiting until your opponent gets bored and leaves the game.

Not really. I have an absurdly high win-rate against mech. You just go for speedroaches then switch to mutas or morph ravagers. He will be making tanks to establish his fourth, and you deny it. You bank gas and make a spire and lings. If he notices the ling production and makes thors, you instantly morph ravagers and attack. You will kill his fourth guaranteed. If he keeps making tanks, you make mutas and bounce between his fourth and his second base.

The fourth base has 3 different attack vectors and the tanks on the highground can’t stop ravagers that bile the command center. The second base is isolated by terrain that mutas can easily bypass. I’ve never had a mech player survive this strategy.

He generally won’t be making missile turrets because he will want hellbats for the lings. If he makes turrets, you can lean into the ravager ling like what I was explaining.

Zerg’s answer to mech is to pray to God above that your opponent is a literal idiot which, ironically, actually works a lot because a lot of those types pick mech specifically for that reason.

The best mech players are bio players. I kid you not. Have you ever seen a bio player do multi pronged thor drops? It’s absolutely unbeatable. Gumiho won a GSL using strategies like that and he’s nowhere near the top terran. Let’s stop pretending that Zerg has any real answers to this style since every response zerg has is basically relying on the terran to voluntarily lose the game. Don’t get me wrong, a lot of terrans do that which is great. But those terrans should be in diamond league and not in GM league. You shouldn’t even have to play against these people, yet here they are taking up 40 minutes of your day. Imagine if you are walking down the street and some rando hobo could detain you against your will for 40 minutes. What a complete joke.

The turtle power of mech is so insane that Ruff has been doing a 1 base ghost rush for years now. The entire build is fundamentally absurd. You rush out a useless unit and nuke your economy in the process, but it literally doesn’t matter because mech can turtle to infinity and beyond.

Mech is a complete joke. It’s the “protoss” way of playing Terran. It’s a waste of my time, it’s a waste of your time, it’s a waste of everybody’s time but some people are so desperate for wins they will do literally anything to get them (including abusing mech).

Don’t get me wrong, I beat this build probably 90% of the time I face against it. BUT, it takes forever. It shouldn’t take 40 minutes for a GM zerg to beat a diamond league terran, but that’s exactly what mech does to the game.

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To demonstrate this, THERIDDLER used to be 6000 but now he’s 5300. Runamok used to be 5800 but now he’s 5000. PracticeX used to be 5900 but now he’s 5500. Let’s throw in Golden since you mentioned him in your video. He used to be 6100 and now he’s 5600. Let’s add in Maynard because why not. He went from 6200 mmr to 5300.

They obviously retuned the ladder algorithm which remapped MMR to different skill levels. People who, as an average, had 6000 mmr are now an average of 5300. Now, this is where it gets interesting:

https://i.imgur.com/SOM185q.png

I used to tell people I was 6300 mmr. They never believed me. I am not even trying here. This is just meme builds. I just clapped this 5600 mmr zerg with a 2 base style. 2 base styles are dead in zvz. This game is just too easy.

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Still waiting for more proof on this, Avilo and Ruff were top 50 GMs in hots now they haven’t been in GM for 15 seasons. That’s partly because there was no MMR shown and no GM demotions, you would get promoted at the start of the season then just spend your bonus pool and you could achieve a spot higher than your mmr. Today if you don’t meet the threshold you’re booted after a day. Yes the numbers have gone down because of a lower player pool but most of the players are situated at the same rank.

You play roach ravager and either go swarm hosts or muta. That is completely standard, let me guess, you win by early game dynamics because if you played a straight up game on stargazers good luck making that work with 1 attack path on the fourth.

Good to see you’re working on your ZvZ. :+1: :+1: :+1:

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If by “broken” you mean “unviable” than you are correct. Only match-up where mech is good is TvT*

If you struggle with mech in ZvT than that means that you either don’t know what you are doing or playing against smurf who can beat you with any silly stuff.

In case of the former your strategy to kill mech Terran is the following:

  1. after scouting that you are up against mech you expand much more aggressive than against bio because mech player can’t punish you for that;
  2. get Viper-Hydra army;
  3. go for a kill; just a minimal micro with Vipers is required;

*If somebody gives me a good advice how to dismantle mech in TvT without heroic micro done by progamers I would greatly appreciate that. Mass Ravens don’t work I tried that many times already…

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Both of them are essentially smurfs who play something silly against much weaker opponents to make entertaining youtube videos.

Harstem and uThermal are doing the same, and BeastyQt and Crank were also doing the same before them.
Crank was the best because he actually made difficult and funny challenges for himself, e.g. play Starcraft and Heartstone at the same time and win at both games.