The patch does nothing to address mech in zvt

You go into the rank history of literally any GM player and around the same time they have a steep decline in MMR.

Ruff is GM. He just uses the “leave league” button for some reason. It’s not clear why. Avilo was on a hiatus for obvious reasons. I suspect a judge made him take a break from the internet for awhile. That’s purely speculation, but the fact pattern does have that semblance.

I don’t look at the GM index. If you are rank 40 or rank 400 doesn’t matter. It’s very misleading. A better indicator is MMR. MMR has a certain mean/standard deviation so you can calculate if you are in the top 0.2% without having to rely on things that are biased by fluctuations in player activity, smurfing, etc. Loads of pro players play on accounts around the 5.5k mmr level (believe it or not). I run into Kiwian all the time. Sometimes he’s on a 5k account and other times it’s a 6000 mmr account. How are you supposed to calculate who is in the top 200 when one person can take up multiple slots? That’s why you use a Z-test and plug in the mean/variance of MMR.

Yeah but the threshold is as low as 4.8k mmr at times. That’s a complete joke. Back in late HotS, a 5500 mmr player was a low GM. A 5500 player will beat a 4800 mmr player like 90% of the time. Either all players have systematically gotten worse (covid melted their brains) or they changed the mmr algorithm.

The MMR values for GM shouldn’t go down UNLESS Grandmaster level players are quitting the game in droves OR the algorithm was retuned.

Swarm hosts are awful if the terran makes banshees or thors. The terran puts a thor into a medivac and it totally invalidates all locust waves. The thor is free to pelt the locusts their entire travel duration, which kills them, and if you tell some to attack the thor he just lifts into a medivac and the locusts are too far away to accomplish anything. The thor can also chase down the swarm hosts when their cooldown is inactive. Your roaches have to babysit the swarm hosts. That means no multipronged attacks and no counter attacks. That means you do unidirectional attacks periodically. Once the wave is done, he is free to push out and end the game because there is zero counter attack potential and the swarm hosts are deadweight until the next wave. Swarm hosts are awful.

Mech’s greatest vulnerability has always been aggressive tech switch styles. They can’t produce both tanks and thors out of their factories at the same time. That’s always been the case. When a base is hard to defend vs flying units, it doubles the strength of these styles. This weakness is greatest in the early game because he doesn’t have as many factories so he has a more binary option for what units to make.

My ZvZ is strange. I have no issue totally clowning on high ranking zerg players. It’s very easy, in fact. But if you get the low GM standard zergs who just mass roaches and headbutt into you, it’s very hard to deal with. This is because you must take a third to be economically competent, and to do that you must deal with 5 minutes of ling bane wars during which time 2 banelings can kill a whole mineral line.

The way Blizzard designs modern maps, there are a million counter-attack paths in ZvZ. Ling bane is free to roam anywhere it wants to go. You have zero defense except for an exhausting micro war across 15 locations. ZvZ is by far the hardest matchup. It’s much harder than the second hardest matchup which is TvT. This has only been made worse by the queen nerfs because the queen used to stabilize Zerg defense a little bit. The inject nerf, way back when, totally rewrote early game defenses. It used to be you could defend a ling flood with 2 queens on your main’s ramp. It was hard, but doable. Nowadays that’s a complete joke. Transfuse is nerfed, creep is nerfed, queen is nerfed in a variety of other ways. They are nerfing creep even more, which will make ling bane even more oppressive in ZvZ. ZvZ is getting completely screwed in the new patch.

It doesn’t matter to me because I don’t engage in the ling bane wars. I’ve designed my playstyles to completely bypass that meta. It puts you at a severe economic disadvantage, but you can compensate by being a superior player. That’s what happened in this game vs this 5600 player. He had a third, was ahead in every way, but his roaches were out of position and I snuck lings into his main. When he went to deal with that, lings hit his third. It’s simply superior multitasking combined with superior map awareness. I knew where everything was on the map and knew there was a path into his main that he couldn’t see.

That’s another thing that has been nerfed for defensive zerg styles. The 10 billion attack vectors means it’s impossible to place your overlords where you can see everything. ZvZ is entirely a gambling machine. You make drones or lings and you win or not depending on if your opponent made drones or lings and this is totally unknowable information. If you make the wrong thing in the wrong ratio, you just die (instantly).

Because ZvZ is so random, it makes it very easy to beat high level zerg players. You just take big risks and half the time they will work out. It’s a complete joke that a 6k mmr player can clown all over 5k terran/protoss but will die to a 4.5k player who does a ling flood at the right time. ZvZ is the worst matchup in the game, bar-none.

One game I will beat a 6k player, and the next I will die to livibee. I kid you not. ZvZ is awful. It’s a complete sht-show.

Because it didn’t need to be. Thank you for contributing.

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Ling bane wars are the skill expression in ZvZ. Roach ravager wars with rapid fire are far less interesting. Seems to me that Batzy can’t handle defence without the crux of mass queens like it’s used in ZvP/T. You could also just play on EU, they love their heavy macro play.

??? that’s the one matchup where overlord spotters are abusive with barely any counter play until ravagers.

Maybe don’t have 15 squads of units? :joy:

Not even close. They are simply a gambling machine. That’s why Serral’s worst matchup is ZvZ and the only opponent who can beat him is Reynor (another zerg). I saw a match between Serral and Reynor. Game 1, reynor does an allin. Serral had started a lair and a round of drones, so he died. Game 2, reynor shows a tell that indicates this allin is coming but makes drones instead. Serral cancels his layer and makes spines. It’s entirely gambling.

I actually tried it awhile back. I beat a 6200 mmr zerg. The ling bane war was going on and I dropped a roach warren sooner than he did and just started rallying roaches across the map off of hatchery tech. He just died. I didn’t bother to even check the replay to see why. It’s a rare exception when I watch replays because the game is just way too easy already. ZvZ has always been my best matchup and if I go watching replays it will just ruin the fun of it.

No it’s literally impossible to have overlords spread out enough to see all attack paths (just based on the timing of when overlords can be there and when the attacks can move out). The exception is when the overlords can get really close to your natural. I always make a point of distracting him then killing an overlord to setup for a future counter attack, and if I ever lose an overlord or have to move one back I always instantly move a new overlord in place. If I have an overlord nearby, I will move it in even if I lose vision of a different path because he knows the overlord in that path is dead so if an attack is going to come it will be through that channel.

That’s literally how you win ZvZ. Zerg bases are open. Units can come and go from any direction. All you have to do is get lings in the proximity of drones and you can almost forget about them. You might have to focus a queen down first. If there are roaches there, depending on how many, you either focus drones, hold position, focus the hatchery or run away. If you can get 2 or more of these happening simultaneously, it’s a game winning condition against most players. You right click on the hatchery then right click a retreat path then go back to managing something else meanwhile he has an APM catastrophe on his hand which involves transfuse, stutter step micro, drone stacking, etc.

My favorite attack move is to go mass lings and rush lurkers. He’s busy chasing around lings when lurkers are morphing. You wait for him to move out, hit from 2 angles with your lings. He might commit to the attack, so you hold-position the lurkers and kill his army for free near your base. If he retreats, you move forward and wedge the lurkers right at his natural.

I beat LiquidSnute with this build once upon a time. It has an incredibly high win-rate. I don’t do that build very often anymore because it just clowns all over every player. I prefer meme styles like hydralisk ling which actually does fairly well against both ravager roach and muta ling bane. Vs muta ling bane, you add in banelings to counter his banelings and use split micro. It’s pretty straight forward.

The arch nemesis of hydra ling is simply lurkers. Hydra ling requires ling upgrades to work, so you are committed to ling production and they are incredibly bad against lurkers. Players like Snake always go for lurkers. The last time I faced against him, I knew he was going to go for lurkers but I tried hydra ling anyway. It obviously lost but I did make a game out of it.

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It is actually pretty weird that they did nothing to nerf either the PF or the Thor for ZvT Mech. Its basically an auto-win if you just sit in your base for 30 minutes and harass with BC. Its so bad that I’ll queue ladder, beat a terran as bio and they instantly switch to mech next game. The strategy is way to easy to execute.

By the way, an easy solution to this problem is to simply allow zergs to cancel units without losing larvae. You still miss out on production time similar to cancelling a robo unit or a unit at a barracks. Zerg loses the time to produce the larvae, and the time to produce the unit. Terran and Protoss only lose the time producing the unit that was cancelled. Zerg has additional risks when losing larvae, because if you have to replace the larvae then you have to have queens, they have to be near a hatchery, they have to have energy, etc. These are all failure points that regularly cause zerg players to lose games.

This is one of the reasons why zerg is the hardest race in the game. People complain about mules losing 20 minerals on their last trip, but have you ever lost 1,000 seconds of unit production time because you held down “T” instead of “R”? Yeah Zerg is definitely the hardest race in the game. If Terran and Protoss had to deal with the BS zerg has to deal with, they’d lose their minds and the issues would be fixed a week later.

Yes that’s a good example of the MMR decline I am talking about. The MMR algorithm changed quite a bit about 2 years ago. Everyone between 4800 and 6,500 had a pretty drastic MMR change around that time. It also became drastically easier to be in GM league around that time.

I have two theories. One is that they retuned the MMR algorithm or that there is some kind of dynamic element to the algorithm that changes with a variable like how many players there are. The second theory is that COVID melted the brains of humanity.

We know lead poising deleted billions of IQ points. That’s a documented historical fact. We also know that COVID causes a severe reduction in IQ. They measured it to be roughly half a standard deviation for people with “severe” covid. That’s massive. Whether the effect persists and how long, or how this effect extrapolates into the broader population, isn’t known (as far as I know). But, I do know that SC2 became a hundred times easier around the time COVID hit.

I knew somebody who didn’t have severe COVID but, even after recovering, had a hard time driving. They’d become confused and couldn’t process everything that was going on on the road. High level SC2 play is many times more mentally taxing than driving down the road. Even a slight reduction in performance would knock a lot of MMR points off of a lot of players.

SC2 skill is probably normally distributed BUT the rewards of a slight increase in skill compound exponentially so performance is probably lognormally distrubted. This is because SC2 has feedback loops. If you get one more worker here, save one marine there, etc, it adds up exponentially. So a small difference in skill will make a very large difference in performance. That means the MMR distribution should be basically lognormal, and if you plotted a frequency distribution for the various MMR levels you’d see it basically is. Bringing this back to COVID, if you knock even 1 IQ point off of a Grandmaster player, it will create a huge drop in their MMR.

By the way, you can apply these principles to more than just SC2 performance. Anytime there is a random process that provides exponential returns you could use similar reasoning. Finance is a good example. Saving an extra hundred bucks might seem almost irrelevant on short time-scales, but on longer time-scales it adds up enormously. That’s why businessmen tend to pinch pennies.

https://i.imgur.com/4PvKLXL.png

Just clapped another one. So anyway, as I was saying, ZvZ is extremely easy. This guy actually called it a “clown build” that “low masters players use”. Yep, you got that right. We finally have some honesty on battle.net. I am beating 5700 mmr zergs with builds they describe as, in their own words, “clown builds”.

Do you know how hard it is to beat high ranking Grandmasters with builds that are designed to lose? It’s easy. Just watch and I will show you how.

So, what do you say? Should I stop clowning on GMs with meme builds, and win a GSL already? It would be a waste of time. Some kids think they actually stand a chance because they can click fast. Lmao. I would obliterate the competition. It wouldn’t even be close.

I feel like I ought to be out there curing cancer or something instead of wasting time on a video game lmao.

If ukko is flaming you it’s obviously deserved, man is more humble than Neuro. What did you do to annoy him?

I completely destroyed him with a clown build, while telling him he need to download hacks to become better at EZcraft 2. :rofl:

You have to understand something about these guys. These players are extremely sweaty. They are proud that they are good at SC. They try so flipping hard to win every game. They memorize every build order. They study pro players. They watch replays. They dream about SC2 at night. So when someone comes in and plays like a drunkard and wins anyway, it really pisses them off. It makes them feel like their accomplishments aren’t as great as they thought. And, they are right. It’s a video game, so if they had a hard time with it then that is a little bit sad. Video games are designed to be easy. I am actually kinda embarrassed that I play SC because it’s so easy. I definitely don’t mention it on the first date, if you know what I mean. It’s definitely something you cautiously bring up once you know the girl is into you.

Also, I am 99% sure he’s a forum regular by the way. The “SilentSword” is an alias he’s used according to smurf tracking websites. There are SIX accounts on the forums with that alias. You do the math. There may have been a bit of an unspoken rivalry. He may have known who he was playing against.

Have you ever wondered what it’s like to clown on GMs with meme builds? To quote Judas Priest:

Huddled in the cellar
Fear caught in their eyes
Daring not to move or breathe
As the creature cries
Fingernails start scratching
On the outside wall
Clawing at the windows
“Come to me” it calls
Atmosphere’s electric
As it now descend the stairs
Hiding in the darkness
Is so futile from its glare
Death comes in an instant
As they hoped it would
Souls ascend to heaven
While it feasts on flesh and blood