I guess English isn’t your first language then. I’m not about to enter a loop argument with you. If you want to continue this discussion, scroll up, read all the posts by scrolling down, then scroll up again. Rinse and repeat.
By the way, I know you don’t understand the joke so I will explain it for you: if you want to keep having this discussion, just keep rereading our conversation until you understand what I am saying. Until then, don’t bother.
Again - not interested in repeating things I have already said. Do come back to me if you decide to exit the loop though.
Widow mine is a unit that allows terran to equalize both economies. Look at the beginning of the game. Protoss usually has 15-20 probe lead by 5:00 minute. Now imagine if you sit idle and let protoss further develop their eco - structures, upgrades, expansions - this would literally snowball to a situation that protoss will float like 7k minerals and 5k gas if left untouched. Widow mines allow terrans to kill like 10 - 20 probes and only then terran HAS A CHANCE to compete against protoss eco. Not even mules allow terran to catch up with toss’ chronoboost which allows to speed up production of everything - units, upgrades, researches etc. Mules actually are the worst macro abililty of all three races - they only allow terran to gather more minerals to compensate for SCV mining time during construction.
Terran is the only race that cannot speed up production of advanced units. Toss has chrono, zerg has injects, and reactor only doubles production of basic units (except liberators).
That’s kind of the main role of widow mines and even then your statement at the pro level is completely wrong. Comparatively disruptors look at your composition, laugh and delete them anyway. This guy makes Danktemplar look like a prophet. At least he knew the main grievances were widow mines against probes…
Stasis in particular makes the targets immortal for its duration; which would render the Disruptor too weak or even useless.
Crowd control would encourage massing units on the Protoss side; which is not the desired effect of the Disruptor’s splash damage.
Crowd control effects (stuns, stasis, etc) would be too powerful against larger or more expensive units like Colossus, Immortals, Lurkers, Thors, Siege Tanks, etc that can survive a Disruptor shot. These units don’t have any special resistance to stuns, and it is better not to design crowd control abilities with weird rules such as scaling inversely with health.
Firebats would be a very weird addition even if you weren’t suggesting them as a “replacement” for Widow Mines (a unit they hardly overlap with at all). The StarCraft I version would be nearly useless because of its low health, and the StarCraft 2 version is nearly useless outside of TvZ based on the existence of ranged and anti-armor units in other match-ups. A durable+light version of the Firebats would just overlap with the Hellbat without being more useful or filling any new role.
I personally love Spider Mines, but they are more destructive than Widow Mines, not less.
And that line of thought is wrong. An army does not become a “death-ball” simply because it is difficult to engage without losing units. An army becomes a “death-ball” when the player keeps massing and clumping as many units as possible because the army’s efficiency continuously increases as they do so.
Death-balls are a function of two factors:
1 Mobility & reinforcement–The more mobile an army is (or the more compact the map is), the less you have to split up it to counteract the opponent’s movements, secure resources, or attack/defend key locations. Your ability to reinforce also feeds into this because any trouble that you have reinforcing your army may force you to split that army.
Unit scaling–The short explanations is that larger army sizes are encouraged as long as increasing the size of your army and compacting it results in taking less damage from the enemy in each engagement. There are a lot of factors that feed into that, such as the range & damage of units, the effects of splash damage (enemy or friendly-fire) against your army, how much your longer ranged units can benefit from using other units as meat-shields, etc.
Circling back to Widow Mines and Disruptors, these units discourage the use of death-balls in two ways:
The splash damage from these units discourages the use of death-balls by the other player. This is because clumping your units and attacking in one group will result in more losses without much (if any) additional damage.
The threat of friendly-fire and other troublesome quirks of using these units (overkill/wasted shots, difficulty controlling/moving them, etc) can discourage massing these units together or using particularly large armies near them.
you have to be kidding me. Widow Mines are one of the very few units terran has that is any good against carriers and void rays. This mass air rush that everybody is doing these days widow mines are one of the few decent counters Terran has to it.
The point is to make Disruptor weaker against Terran: if you have seen DH uThermal against MaxPax you should’ve noticed that uThermal could not engage MaxPax army while uThermal was 200 supply and MaxPax was like ~110 and MaxPax even didn’t had Storms. furthermore, MaxPax was sending DTs to harass uThermal bases all the time so his real fighting army was even smaller. I strongly believe that having an army twice as big as your opponents consisting of expensive units AND having better economy than your opponent AND STILL not being able to fight your opponent is a sign of TERRIBLE IMBALANCE. I did not expected uThermal to win against MaxPax, but I was not expecting that the game would be so hopless for Terran.
FURTHERMORE, we have seen similar scenario in the game of Clem vs KingKobra - which Clem lost - where Kobra was completely zoning out Clem army with like 4-5 Disruptors, and Clem who is mechanically best Terran around couldn’t do a $h!t about it.
The desired effect of changes I propose is to make Protoss don’t have a single unit than can nullify opponent entire ground army. That unit which with some support from Protoss air units make both of the hard counter to ANYTHING that Terrans can build.
I can’t think of a scenario where it matters that Siege Tanks, Colossus, Immortals and Thors can survire a bit more damage than a single Disruptor shot.
The fact that Lurker becomes slightly more vulnerable to Disruptor is a feature (however considering Lurking instant siege/unsiege and extremely fast movement speed and extremely long range I don’t see how its relevant outside of cases when Lurker is burrowed almost in the Protoss’s mineral line.
PvZ is imnalanced because of Protoss having too good static defense and too good air. Protoss ground army is bad vs Zerg. I mentioned many times what and how I believe should be buffed in it that would not affect Terran and this is outside of scope of current discussion.
I believe we talked about this before and agreed to disagree. But if you want me to refresh my points…
WM have multiple roles in the game
Deal with clumps of ling-banes and Zealots. It is moderately effective at that because WM can be discharged with basic micro, destroyed by units with long range and in case of Chargelots and lings on creep WM deals more friendly fire damage than damage to an enemy because of how fast Charge and lings on creep are. Firebats would be amazing at this role. Not only they would soak damage like marauders do, they will do a lot of splash +light and will do zero friendly fire damage.
WM as a worker harass tool. In the world of shield battery and recall WM remained almost the single viable probe harass tool. In this task WM beats Firebat hands down, but I do believe that the main problem is that other harass options against toss are just poor in current balance.
WM as an anti-air tool. Is absolutely essential against both Muta and Skytoss. It has become so because of Liberator-AA has been overnerfed and HSM was removed from the game.
Regarding WM usage against Void Ray cheese, it says how overpowered this cheese is that Terran have to resort to such desperate tactics. It reminds me an era of overbuffed BroodLords when Terrans had to use Medivacs as bombers to drop WMs under Broods and burrow them, as nothing else could kill such army.
WM as a map control tool. Very important role that other Terran units can’t do.
Firebats doesn’t overlap with Hellbats, because
a) Hellbats are light and thus are poor damage sponges.
b) Hellbats are very slow and don’t have Stim
c) Hellbats use separate upgrades from bio.
The problem is that with the way StarCraft2 auto-targeting works, Spider Mines would be targeted down immediatelly and automatically the moment after they unburrow.
I said they have little to no impact on major battles and that their main usage is in controlling the field of battle, not in dealing damage. Comparing them to disruptors is absurd in that context.
If you want to compare a Widow Mines impact on the game a better comparison would be Dark Templars or Oracles.
This is what you said too… And I think it’s very clear this is nonsense. I have nothing against widow mines but if used correctly they can outright win you a game and it won’t matter if you’re in bronze or GM.
You also said this, true. It’s as much bogus as the other claim. At very high level those widow mines can utterly dictate a battle. You can watch a couple of Clem’s replays where he literally sometimes killes 20 lings/ 10 banes with it. If the banes get sniped, it becomes very hard to deal with the marines and the maurauders. With toss it’s the same. EMP in combination with mines is very deadly for toss. Using them to soften up chargelots also can impact a fight completely since if the chargelots fail, you’re in a lot of trouble and you can’t soak up damage to protect the high tech units in your army so it will die. In that way u can compare them very much to disruptors.
Whats clear is that you derp-moved into a window mine and lost a game.
Feel free to provide video evidence that shows this in action without it simply being because the player just derp-moved into widow mines. I’ll wait patiently.
Trolling and partially quoting to mask your drivel won’t help you. I think multiple players stated quite objectively. If your opinion is that if widowmines go off, you must have derped into them, it tells more about you/ your opinions/ the level you are playing at than about the truth. But I guess you think Serral derpmoves his units into widowmines vs Clem, or maybe Parting derpmoves his units into Cure. I bet you could learn them a lot …
You can re-read this thread and (try to) use reading comprehension to understand what is being said. Until then, don’t bother to reply.
Clem has defeated serral with WM.
As def against ling run by for his base.
push tool.
And my favorite … burrow and forget.
what i also found nice: ghost has ~4 -5 ling on him. mine shot ling dead. ghost alive get healed.
mines are overloaded. 5 range/ aoe/ air and ground/ cheap/ no upgrade needed/ invisible/ automated.
Disruptors are not more pleasant because 1-2 can turn the mid game and 5-8 are exhausting in the late game. but clearer design long range for push or def (active defense). possibly harass.
Forcing Disruptor into a supporting role, I’m not sure either. Because Ht are useless by lucky emp. as a support they should have an awesome ability like zone that reduces attackspeed/speed. and an ability that helps against air. because Robo has no real anti air option.
Uh, no. Mines don’t move. You have to move into them. Disruptors do move and you have to react in the time available to not lose your entire army. The range and size of the splash and damage of the splash is also not even remotely comparable.
If you are losing your whole army to mines, it’s a learn to play issue. If you are losing your whole army to disruptors, you might be a korean pro player because not even they can dodge disruptors properly.
…