Terran buffs of 2020

General Discussion
41

I’ve got no real horse in this race, I don’t play ladder, but this is all kinds of wrong.

Siege Tanks have been a core part of Terran since StarCraft came out more than 20 years ago. From the start Terran was designed with modern military tactics in mind, one key part being zone control.

Has there been changes since then? Yes.
Could there be a discussion on whether they’re good or bad? Again, yes.

But like it or not from a gameplay perspective Siege Tanks are excellently designed. They have a core strength, and many weaknesses.

3 Likes
42

So your talking about lore…

I am talking about Terran buffs.

Tanks where buffed multiple times. All being part of lore.

Siege tanks are NOT excellently designed at all.

They have literally no reall weaknesses if you place them properly. They basically have the most range of any unit in the game. They should not also do extreme splash damage.

Whats your next argument? they cant shoot up? Thats why u have complimentary marines that do the highest DPS ingame to anything that flies.

43

Adrenal was nerfed from 40% to 30% in LotV.

44

Balance is not Design, Design is not Lore. If you are going to try to be snide, get the basics right, otherwise your whole point just falls apart.

As I had said, Siege Tanks have been a staple of every matchup since vanilla SC1. A game considered to be one of the best RTS of all time. Clearly, it did not ruin the game there.

SC2 Siege Tanks have different characteristics, but share the same role and prominence as in the first game. This has not changed since day one.

Therefore they could not have “ruined the game for many people”, as it simply means both SC1 and SC2 are not a game for them.

Tanks have weaknesses beyond the common “can’t shoot up”.

  1. They are slow, they delay movement to set up and reset Siege Mode; this delays the armies movement, and allows the enemy to outmaneuver the Terran.

  2. They have both more range than sight, and are the only unit in the game with a minimum attack range. This forces the accompanying troops to leave the Tanks vulnerable to attack, as they cannot all stand beside them without reducing the Tank’s effectiveness.

  3. They cause very large amounts of friendly fire. This allows armies with fast, cheap expendable units (Zerg), and fast, tough units (Protoss) to use the Tanks to clear out Terran for them as well.

These are all weaknesses that are shared by few if any other units in both games.

Can the weaknesses be accounted for? Yes, but this is the case for every unit in the game.

2 Likes
45

Pretending tanks should be in the game because you overly glorify turtling up.

Every RTS game have base defenses in units. But they dont all instantly shut down everything from the ground once you have enough.

Comparing BW with sc2 is also showing your incapability to understand sc2 is a completely different game.

  1. They dont have to move.

  2. Terran has scan.

  3. Learn howto position your tanks properly.

So can we buff storm in Sc2 to BW then?

46

You do know that Siege Tanks in BW had more range, more dps, and cost less right?

You really don’t get the difference between balance and design do you? Clearly you’re too busy trying to get a Terran nerf to actually care, so keep enjoying your yelling into the void I guess.

1 Like
47

this race is overtuned

i played terran for a long time, masters top 8 with random and terran.

terran, with all the LOTV buffs in terms of units and improvements to late game terran units has become the “third” macro race. before, terrans had to end the game early.

terran T3 used to be UNBUILDABLY bad. Thors were hot garbage, BCs were even worse than thors. mixing them in wasn’t worth factory or starport time, EVER.

they went from that to:
BC’s viable in every matchup
Thors demolish toss air now, can fight against broods without starport or ghost support
liberators which basically fill the roles of late game siege tank, except they are flying, and better aginst immortals/ultras/collosus, etc

What do you get when you mix a GREAT late game race (terran) with constant opportunities to end the game via low cost harassment (mine drops, liberators set up during a push, literally teleporting a tier 3 unit into my opponents main, dont even need to micro it)?

the perfect tournament race.

obviously strategy still plays a role, which is why terrans dont win everything. but they will. if changes are not made, terrans will start to win everything and people will leave this game.

*but dear god can we remove some of the perks of this race? like can we remove liberators auto targetting HT/infestors when there are thousands of other units in the area? can we remove thors automatically targetting opponent tier 3 air, totally unmicroed? *

my immortals dont automatically shoot roaches during a roach/ling attack. why does terran receive this treatment when other races have to micrO?

2 Likes
48

You do know that carriers actually where a thing in bw right?

You really dont get the difference between a unit thats broken and overpowering due to its DPS versus a unit that sieges but isnt dictating the game to such an extent you cannot even attack into someone.

Because yes, thats what the role of the siege tank is right now.

“You cant attack me, You cant break me.”

Its like godmode in a unit aslong as you have a crit mass that can literally whipe away an entire army with 1 shot due to its insane splash.

You dont get the difference between a unit that zones out, but doesnt auto wreck everything with 0 micro involved?

Look at tempest. it has 0 dps. Why? because it has ‘range’. then look at siege tank. instant death dps.

49

2 steps forward 1 step back. Would you consider that a nerf? BC teleport used to be insta escape but i don’t consider the stun change in general a nerf. I think its wiser to consider all the changes made to a unit. Cause if we think about it with just the nerfs alone then i can make a statement like Thors got nerfed (armor and AOE radius).

You and I can both agree that Thors got buffed in TvZ and TvP with their 250mm mode. Some people might disagree and say no Thors got nerfed overall and say the armor and AOE are more important especially vs mutas and lings. It then becomes an entirely different discussion. I mean tell me can you include Liberators in a list of units that got buffed in lotv just because of the change that moved the upgrade to the fusion core disregarding all the nerfs it received (which i don’t defend at all). I mean making that statement when Libs and Thors got nerfed especially against mutas isn’t correct.

I dont mind listing buffs and nerfs for each race however if we are going to cherry-pick then we do it for both the nerfs and the buffs.

50

That’s the contrary : adrenal glands provided +15% DPS/attack speed during HotS (-0.109/0.696), and they buffed it to +30% since LotV’s beta (-0.143/0.497). Allowing us to witness cracklings dismantling isolated archons in WCS… :woozy_face:

They forgot to mention that explicitely in Liquipedia though. That’s the second time ever I see Liquipedia forgetting to trace something back. ^^

They don’t do extreme splash damage. Mines, disruptors, banes would all individually deal more damage. Their particularity is that that splash damage has extreme range once sieged ; hence the positional game of terran in TvT and TvZ.

Now, I just had a game against a mech player, which happened to be a freelosing smurf. And he had an unbelievable tank production considering his restricted income (due to falling to my mindgame and harass). But he lacked both of patience, and map control, allowing me to spot him advancing and to stim-in into slowly sieging tanks, when I didn’t used matrix/auto-turrets/liberators. Well his conclusion (after something that looked like cyrilic insults) was similar to yours, but the opposite : he concluded marines should be removed from the game.

Whine, whine never changes.

2 Likes
51

David Kim focused on balance to a fault. He was so insistent on 50% win rates he forgot the game needed to be fun and it almost died in HotS. Now they’re trying to fix it but don’t have the resources since SC2 is actually 10 years old, LotV almost 5 years old, and so larger design changes are impossible and they’re stuck dealing with what we have now.

3 Likes
52

Tanks actually do extreme splash damage. They do 55 damage per shot versus armored. The only protoss unit that isnt armored is the zealot and the adept.

Suddenly you realise why zealots are required to deal with siege tanks. But if theyr tucked away like theyr supposed to, zealots cant even come close.

And you keep talking about moving out all the time. If you have tanks unless you are a doing a very specific timing push, you dont need to actually attack with your ‘main army’

Tanks are a unit designed for defense, not offense.

You play terran, Play terran properly and start harrassing instead of amoving across the map with 1 ball of unit for the love of all thats holy.

53

He speak about 2020 (2019) patch. The +10 HP was in 2018. Blizzard propose a +10 hp in 2019 but this change has not passed.

Thank you for proving to me that you can’t even read a title. He speak about 2020 (2019) patch. But platinum zerg can’t even read a title, it’s to hard for him.

54

Mistakes again, on both statements. You’re missing 4 ground units (including a large assault one specially recommended vs mech) and 2 aerial ones.

Anyway, tanks do 40 dmg to non armored targets within the bulleye, and lesser to those surrounding that target center. For some reason, the outer diameter of the zealots is larger than it seems, passively splitting them ; which means that one tank shot with deal 40 dmg over 150 on only 4 zealots, and 20/150 to 4 more. The time for the second shot to come (2s), chargelots will already be on the tank line, at which point the tanks will either be unable to fire, or dealing more damage to themselves than to the zealots. :boom:

Erazor, I don’t like the scornful, insulting atmosphere of systematic confrontation that dominates on battlenet forums. But, as much as understanding this is indeed one of the keys of PvT vs tanks, you need to realize that this fact has been known since the very start of SC2. Tanks being countered so effectively by a gazless massable fast produced T1 unit led them to nearly disappear from offensive TvP uses during the whole of HotS.

I’ll quote Liquipedia regarding that period :
Can be incorporated into a defensive opening to defeat against mass Gateway pushes on two or three bases by Protoss, but are extremely fragile in TvP. Only effective against Stalkers and Colossi. All other high health Protoss units are a one-sided engagement that makes massing up a large Siege Tank count pointless as it does not give Terrans enough survivability while massing Tanks or pushing against Protoss.

If we’re seeing them back in LotV’s PvT, it’s not only because of LotV’s tanks’ buffs, as they’re marginally significant against zealots, but because of the stalkers’ ones, as the metagame shifted towards a lot more of stalkers openers. But once the metagame will shift again, tanks will probably see less use once again.

Tanks are designed for sieges. Sieges can be offensive as well as defensive.

And in fact, unless you like turtles, we could even say they should be used offensively as much as possible.

My fingers aren’t as fast as I’d want, and my skill is only intermediate/mediocre. Yet, I’ve got a decent knowledge about this game, so I’d appreciate if you let the terrans decide for themselves how terran should be played. Including messing with the gameplan of the opposing protoss.

1 Like
55

He’s included a host of changes from all the way back to the start of LotV pretty much.

56

So you are biased. We get it.

You realise nobody only makes 1 tank?

Do you even play the actuall game at all?

If you have 10+ tanks you literally kill every protoss ground army, including zealots.

Immortals versus tanks, tanks win, not only cost efficiently but also production capability wise.

The sheer thought you pretend maps are designed like deserts giving chargelots a free way to surround from every corner of the map is deceitfull.

I keep repeating learn howto position your tanks properly and you cannot be broken.

But thats the one argument you cant deal with, you pretend it doesnt exist.

Do you really think chargelots are going to bust a natural when its walled off with depots and 3 tanks shelling away at them?

A terran could mass CC behind it, instantly mule spam, build more tanks, leapfrog(if needed) them into expansions. And do exactly the same with those expansions, using map terrain to build buildings on to create chokes and walloffs

Eventually allowing terran to macro up for basically free from any micro, any aggression is nullified instantly.

And now we come to the second point of this post.

Do you know who wins on equall bases in PvT?

Do you know who trades the best in terms of PvT?

Its T, without tanks even being needed.

Straight up MMM trades more cost efficiently then any protoss army can muster up dps for. The higher you go in terrans tech tree, the harder the counters to the protoss lategame become.

Eventually reaching Thor/BC/ghost levels. And you basically won the game.

Also it must be nice to have the luxury to pick and choose your tactics and strategies.

Face facts. There’s only 1 way to actually play the best way as each individual race. Terran is required to harrass, if you dont like to harrass cuz u dont have the apm for it. suck it up and accept the fact you are bad.

Dont beg for your auto win unit to remain in the game because of your lack of skill.

57

The risk of bias is inherent to every perception. Yet, when that perception is based on mistaken data, the risk turns into a certitude.

Hence when someone tells there are only 2 non-light units in protoss’ arsenal, and that tanks do 55 dmg to armored ; we have the certitude the rest of his analysis is biased, as built on mistaken premises.

Alright, I’ll stop being nice. Can you explain me how would I be able to point out your many mistakes if I didn’t play the game in the first place ? Use your brain a little.

Of course, if you’re sieged behind an obstacle with a critical mass of tanks, there are very few grounds units that will get through. Now to achieve that :
— You’d need the time to produce tanks (at least 2 factories + 2 tech labs), so you won’t have that mass on a bio two base push
— You’ll then need to cross the whole map with 3.15 speed units, while there will be observers or other spotters everywhere, and archons immo chargelots in vast amounts ; and the protoss will have 4+ bases active (supposing he hasn’t taken the decision either to deny your third or to switch air). You’ll be get wiped-off midway by any decent protoss player (I mean the ones who know how to play against mech).

Immortal do lose to a critical mass of sieged siege tanks. I’ve been explaining this on another thread. I didn’t know there were players dumb enough to wait for the tanks to siege on favorable positions though.

You’re supposing the protoss player will aclick chargelots on a finished natural wall off, like a silver league.

From platinum and possibly gold, they will either strike when your walls aren’t finished (for example a chargelot archons immo push on the terrans just landed third base). Afterwards they will use a prism to either attack where your tanks aren’t (good luck microing without SCVs), or land the immortals directly above them, or take the map and choose to go for a disruptor tempest carrier chargelot lategame. Good luck winning with tanks against that, abusive position or not.

As for knowing how to use tanks, I have debunked Zerg players up to 700 MMR above my own using them ; so I’d be glad you not to try to lecture me about a race you have no practical experience maining.

But do you ?

The simple fact you’re not mentioning what timings, upgrades and respective compositions you’re comparing makes me doubt it.

Which is why terran players try to end up the game as fast as possible with bunkers liberators and tanks. It’s certainly not because gateball’s efficiency has changed with LotV, and certainly not because they know about upgrades advantage, and about lategame cost efficiency.

You will nearly never see pure MMM play at pro level nowadays, particularly in TvP. I will let you understand by yourself the reasons why.

Since we’re talking about ignoring arguments, I remind you you haven’t answered to :
— You not seing a single terran nerf since Lotv
— You being wrong about Dk’s departure moment and decisions
— You confusing yamato with yamato + TJ, and ignoring counters (such as neural parasite, yet non exclusively)
— You being wrong about stalkers vs BC cost for cost (since than means +33% supplies for the stalkers)

So if you insist on not leaving arguments unanswered, the post for you to answer is here. We are eager to see how you will explain your mistaken premises.

1 Like
58

The problem with the first notion is simple, you dont even understand what armored means.

If you think archons or sentries are viable units in PvT you seriously need to start learning howto use ghost. The rest is all armored.

Second

40 base damage + 30 bonus damage vs armored.

I am sorry i made a mistake its not 55. its 70.

70 damaged vs an armored unit.

Well clearly you arent pin pointing any mistakes that you are actually correcting. Rofl.

I agree i made a mistake, tanks dont do 55 damage versus stalkers, they do 70.

They dont do 55 damage versus collosi they do 70.

they dont do 55 damage versus immortals they do 70.

Second.

To achieve that all you need is 1 factory with a tech lab constantly producing tanks. Not 2. 1.

Also the mere idea you think you know howto play this game, yet you talk about a 2 base push non stop.

Do you understand the difference between harrassing and pushing? You dont ‘push’ as terran unless you are allinning or you have maxed out (and even then you should be dropping, not amoving through the map.

This also undermines your entire logic of moving out. Because as ive repeatedly said, you dont move out. But thats your fanboyism, selective reading much.

The mere idea you can just mass expand hiding behind tanks still hasnt sippled in through to you.

About your immortal ‘reaction’. Normally terrans actually, you know, use… scan. To kill observers. To make sure they can if they even intend to move out. do it safely.

I understand you dont understand advanced macro mechanics like … using scan. But 99% of the other terrans understand what scanning does. It reveals invisible units.

Once youve made sure either with a raven or scanning properly that there is no detection. You will want to make sure to first see what the protoss is actually doing after your initial reaper scout (wich should arleady tell you mountains)

I bet you dont do that. But normal people actually throw harrassing units in just to scout.

And once you know the desired tech path of the enemy protoss you actually react.

By the time protoss is even thinking about a third base you should already have atleast 3 tanks. By this time you shouldve scouted him. and his tech choice.

If you see mass chargelots you get an extra factory with reactor to permanently make mines. Its not hard. Just 2 at a time.

If you see archons and templar, you go ahead and tech to ghost instead. If you see collosi, you can either use ravens stun untill you have enough vikings out.

Once you realise all this took was just a single scout into what your opponent is teching into, you suddenly realise the entire game starts playing itself out, you can out macro and hit 200/200 faster then protoss can because of 3 base mules, you can start to actually counter the units protoss has and stop them in there tracks, allowing you to expand even faster.

All the while you should be dropping the protoss non stop, if you arent killing probes, you arent playing terran properly. (and every probe you kill actually hurts protoss an insane amount seeing they cost minerals, they get minerals and guess what zealot costs minerals!)

If they are attacking you with a prism, (wich you shouldve already scouted and prepared for) You should have a raven to shut it down, marines in position, atleast 2 turrets in position, possiblity of a mine in position.

The problem is you dont have any idea where the prism is because you arent using sensor towers and you arent splitting marines up to scout valuable information.

Suddenly protoss has disruptor tempest carrier chargelot lategame?

You must have everything besides maybe BC then aswell.

If you let a protoss tech into carriers as a terran AND you lose to it, you are not playing the game properly. (same with tempest).

Terran have the strongest anti air units in the game. They are literally the least of your concern.

If you didnt scout intime you can just missile turret wall. You can instant tech into mass thors to defeat literally all skytoss with a single amove.

You should already have tons of mines blowing up zealots.

The mere idea you take pride in killing zergs by spamming tanks and autowinning without micro, just shows how repulsive you are.

PvT always favoures T in equal base scenarios because of mules. You said i should use my brain? why cant you?

If you dont realise protoss gateway units actually always trade cost inefficiently i want you to watch every proffesional game out there and look at the resources lost tab in a macro game.

Protoss is always extremely far behind but is capable of winning because they are atleast 3 bases ahead.

I already have awnsered this countless of time, There are no actuall terran nerfs from lotvs inception to now.

I am not wrong about Dk’s departure moment and descisions. I remember very clearly how blizzard started opening up the forums for feedback to change up the state of lotv.

Except yamato + TJ is literally what i was talking about. I like how you in your biased mind thinks there are actuall counters for BC.

If you dont have ghost with your BC you deserve to lose, once you have BC vs Z you should already be maxed and have scans for days.

59

Mistake. You did 6 documented errors in quoted posts, not one.

Sure. The widow mines weren’t cloaked before Lotv, Liberator’s didn’t take 3+ cumulated nerfs, BC’s Yamato was left untouched, MULEs are the same power than HotS’, and Raven’s capabilities duration were only divided by a 18x factor, with an AOE spell damage that was only reduced from 140 to 0. The violence of raven’s nerfs was actually unprecedented in the game. But no, that’s not nerfs, right ?

Ignorance ! Or stupidity, pick one to explain your blindness.

I am talking about BC harass, which isn’t necessarily a lategame situation. Hence, there won’t be ghost flying with the BCs. Stop theorycrafting on the fly about a MU you never played.

That might be the most concentrated collection of bs I’ve ever read about TvP.

— Either you go mech, and you will try to reach that 10+ critical mass of tanks with 2 factories or more (3 most of the time, with due amount of starports)
— Either you go bio, and you will not only harass but also push out the protoss on either 2 or three bases.

I dare you to find a single progamer game where a bio player turtles until reaching 200/200 with 10+ tanks on one factory. That’s just plain nonsense for anyone knowing the MU.

Sure. I’m certain there are big red circles pointing out observers on the minimap, and no alert whatsoever upon the destruction of one.

I think you must be lacking of map control, and are used to lose your games upon discovering the mech player having sieged 10 tanks in front of your home. You’re mistake is assuming all protoss do play with the same lacks.

You’re the only one suddenly realizing things on this thread.

That’s also BS. Turrets don’t defend drops in early game where you cant’ spam them all around your base’s border. Not to mention the mineral requirement would reduce the army you have to actually defend the drop. The only drop situation where you’d want turrets in early game are vs DT if your tech path isn’t raven compliant.

Sensor towers to defend early prism, BS again. And I have good map control using other kind of spotters, don’t worry.

You seem to have no idea of the determinants of situation I’m alluding to. Anyway, either you suggest to push, either to turtle while harassing. But if you do suggest to turtle, like you are doing above, then “don’t let the protoss get there” isn’t an answer.

Hence the incoherence of your reasoning : you can either push the protoss to prevent him reaching his lategame easily, OR turtle and play the lategame. Assuming you can prevent the lategame while turtling is only another proof you’re theorycrafting on the spot.

2 Likes
60

you really do complain about Terran on every post you make right? You want us even weaker than we are right now so you can enjoy your free wins even more easily?