I presume it’s a good idea to have all champions AI each game? If so, then do people also accommodate their AIs with maximum number of units for Tactical Data Web? For example, 7+ Zealots, 10+ Adepts, 5+ Immortals, etc. (according to the coop guide site)
Or, do we just use whatever units that’s best for situation, with enough spares in case AI dies, and ignore TDW?
What about during P2, Network Administrator?
Generally, yes. Most people pick 2-3 heroes for their comp and build matching units to reinforced that perk, the rest of the heroes either go unbuilt, built as 1, or built and left somewhere to stand guard while being occasionally replaced. Fenix’s best P0 build is mass scouts and 3 carriers with Mojo and Clolarion.
When using P2 however, you want to do what you described with all units to a certain amount based on your main comp. Difference being is you want to keep your army away from your heroes, but nearby so if one dies they can respawn close by and get back into the fray. Having your army present with your heroes gets them killed very easily due to the negative penalty of the prestige and burns your money insanely fast trying to replace them.
But that triggers Avenging Protocol, no? Or is it still not worth it.
Not worth it IMO, army units become fodder because of the -50% vitals, however dying is really only an issue for Kaldalis, Talis, and Mojo. You can kind of get away with it if your comp consists of heavy units and you have good micro, but even then It’s more economical to just respawn spam.
For the early game, most will rush to get their first 2 heroes out from one of their production buildings for a strong early game presence. For example, starting the game off with the immortal hero, colossus hero, and Fenix makes an incredibly powerful pushing force right from the get go. As for which heroes you end up replenishing throughout can depend on enemy comp and map. But yes, a general rule is to have all six champions out, and go heavier on the army units that counter the enemy comp. Oh, and conservators. Those little things are amazing.
For P2 you want your champions to do all of the work and only use your army to clean up areas that are free is enemies. You’re going to lose your champions from time to time yes, but they’re cheap and usually deal far more damage for their value. Obviously the star for P2 being the zealot hero Kaldalis. With 7 other zealots for maximum damage for his ability, he can charge in and start doing 100 damage per swing of his weapon… With aoe. This absolutely melts anything on the ground, including any hybrids and even some heroes from the mutator Heroes of the Storm.
It really doesn’t matter. The theory behind Fenix Champions is definitely pointing towards having all 6. This is because a complimentary and balanced army will always be the strongest, as a general rule (as it covers the most situation).
That said, it isn’t so crazy to then understand the situation isn’t always the same, so that coverage isn’t always at the same efficiency. This is where using less than 6 but appropriately countering enemy and maps is a thing. However, since that’s specifically geared, there’s no specific amount or choices that wins out. Although, generally Taldarin is among that smaller group.
P2 is different in approach due to its weakened units and buffed champion. While as a general advice for beginners, it is a good idea to keep the army away. That distance in practice should still be less than a screen away. As you become practiced, you will be able to gauge to have them fight as well.
The reason you don’t dive in like that without the skills is because the champions in P2 accounts for a larger proportion of overall DPS. And the large fluctuations of your weaker units directly affects their DPS thus your overall DPS. So it is usually safer (when you’re not ready) to keep them away.
The not too long of a distance is key because you’re right, you do want AP to proc. And it doesn’t last for minutes. So keeping them close by will give you the most benefit in that sense. As much as a 300+ DPS Kaldalis seem more or less pointless compared to a 600+DPS one, I can tell you there is definitely in-game use for keeping it at 600+.
most maps are to short for all AI champions. i recommend warpgate and stargate OR robotic, depending on map and enemy comp.
Generally speaking, 6 Champion is the go-to build for Fenix, regardless of prestige. You can still do other niche builds, like Robo only, mass Adepts, Adept/Stargate… There’s a number of good builds.
On P2, always get all 6. Them plus a Conservator or two and Fenix can wipe maps easily.
I’m hearing both yes and nay on having all six champions here, though folks seem to agree that Tactical Data Web is not good enough to warrant a full fleet of all units, just ones needed for the mission.
Just think of it as, it’ll cover everything sure but you can always tailor it. And when you do, you don’t need all six.
So to answer the original question, is it good to always have all six every game? No. And it wouldn’t make sense to go the same strategy every game.
One reason why I hesitate to level Vorazun.
I finally got his P2 to mastery! Man leveling this sucked-azz (yes, I did revert to P0, but it shouldn’t have come to this). Even for Karax’ P1, you’re missing out on lv15/Unity Barrier which isn’t trivial, but at least once he gets to lv11/Kahlai Ingenuity, you can make significant contributions with his P1 from there. Then managed to play a few mastery games on his P2…
This was difficult for me to do. I’m guessing at the very least, I should just leave all champions on a single # group, and F2 for everyone else (but have Obs on their own so they don’t fly into Missile Turrets and Spore Crawlers).
If you’re not going to keep them apart, DEFINITELY be able to replace them promptly. I hotkey the Purifier Enclave thing to quickly check how many shells I have for each champion.
Yeah, this seems to be as good of a “rule of thumb” if there was any. Even though there aren’t any building prereqs for Fenix, Gateway units are practical (if nothing else for Conservators’ “protection dome” and mobile warp field), and easy to spam (they warp in faster directly into power fields, on the spot). Then do one of Robotics or Star Gate to supplement those, and get in a few more champions.
Yeah, it’s a very real problem. So don’t feel forced to keep them super close. No stacked AP champions are still better than less TWD champions… if that make sense.
The idea is to transition towards it. Do what you’re comfortable with. And it’s definitely a good idea to keep conclave on a separate key to check the shells.
And this demonstrates why doing all 6 champions isn’t always the way to go (non-specific to anyone, just in general). Upkeeping the full TWD shells for all 6 requires quite a lot of work and balance (including the champions):
As shown above, there is no room for “lost shell supply” at all. So doing all 6 champions perfectly, the player needs to play extremely well.
This doesn’t mean “don’t use 6 champions”, but that often there is no need. And the skills required to upkeep them is far more difficult than most players are capable of. As such, players that are doing 6-champions are often running them subpar than their full potential anyway.
All that said lol, given that P2 Fenix can run 99% games with just Kaldalis. And that the other 1% only requires Talis in addition to him. It’s just all around evidence why 6 may be overkill lol.
Wait, time out. P2 Kaldalis is that much of a beast?
Takes control, and remembering to bring him back in, but he’s a monster. He’s got something like 600 splash dps when you’ve got a proper TDW amount.
Here’s someone clearly far better than I am but yes. Absolutely yes.
These kind of runs demonstrate just how coop can be done. If you know what you’re doing.
Oh, and why some prestiges are beasts, like P2 Fenix and P3 Alarak, etc.
Ironically, Alarak’s P3 doesn’t require himself? XD
EDIT: Hot damn, I love how he “teleports” Kaldalis by letting him die and transfers to another zealot far across the map.
I think one thing people miss on Fenix and don’t ever talk about, Is the fact the sentry’s have an ability that reduces all incoming damage (including storms, banes, and any aoe abilities by hybrids) by 35%. That alone turns a weak army into a very strong army. My comps always include 10-15 Adepts 10-15 Sentinels 6-8 sentry’s. From there its based on the enemy comp and what mission it is. I think the Fenix sentry’s are clearly one the the most underrated unit in coop commanders. Any time I play with a Fenix they don’t have one ever. I think if you just included sentry’s in your comp you could run the all hero comp and smash with that buff.
agree to this.
6-8 sentries is way to many. to constantly shield ur army and have one centry ready to warp in, you need 3-4. i usualy stick to 3
I do love some Conservators, I usually bring 4 because some can still be killed off during a skirmish.
That said, while P2 halves all non-hero units’ cost and vitae, their damage and shield remain the same, can Conservators provide enough survivability for them to deal the 2x damage before dying? I’m speaking mostly about the range units of course, since too many melee would just clump up.